Turbo & Manifold Hardware Discussion

[S14DB]

Originally Posted by ixfxi

def, thats a spam bot quoting someone elses post earlier in this thread.....


question, i asked this before but no one has answered it yet.

EGT probe location. i would like to see some examples of where people have installed their probes.

my original manifold is an s13-type, no probe. i have an s14/s15 manifold that i plan on using as it has an EGR port that i will cut off, modify, and tap for EGT. that will acquire temp from cylinder #4. one of my buddies was talking shit saying that its better to get combined temp closer to the turbo. but then he said he's seen a lot of thermocouples fail and that its better to install them after turbo.

Banks for example, says that good quality thermocouples do not fail so no need to worry about them being ingested into the turbo.

i am curious what you guys have to say. anyone here have a damaged EGT probe? and if so, what brand was it? i would like to clear the air hear, so please speak up.


edit: here is a link to the article on banks website:
http://bankspower.com/techarticles/s...t-is-important

i trust gale banks. he's bald and bald people are smart.

I have seen write-ups of 100~500F drop across the turbine. It's also not linear. The temp drop may only be 100F out of boost, Then much greater when the turbine has spooled.

I drilled and taped my turbine inlet years ago. Have a PLX R-500. Who knows the quality of the probe. Haven't had a problem since. Granted it doesn't see the track as often as you guys.

[Sleepy_Steve]

That would make sense, I think I read in maximum boost or some other turbo book that only about 25% of the energy to spin the turbine comes from the kinetic energy of the exhaust gas pulses. The rest of it comes from turning heat energy in the exhaust stream into kinetic energy due to (paraphrasing here) the magical snail shape of the turbine housing.

If MOST of the energy to spool the turbo comes from heat, then it would make sense that a much higher temp is seen pre-turbine, and that the difference between pre-turbine and post turbine temps gets larger when you're in boost and the compressor is asking the turbine to do more work.

[Def]

Originally Posted by ixfxi

def, thats a spam bot quoting someone elses post earlier in this thread.....


question, i asked this before but no one has answered it yet.

EGT probe location. i would like to see some examples of where people have installed their probes.

my original manifold is an s13-type, no probe. i have an s14/s15 manifold that i plan on using as it has an EGR port that i will cut off, modify, and tap for EGT. that will acquire temp from cylinder #4. one of my buddies was talking shit saying that its better to get combined temp closer to the turbo. but then he said he's seen a lot of thermocouples fail and that its better to install them after turbo.

Banks for example, says that good quality thermocouples do not fail so no need to worry about them being ingested into the turbo.

i am curious what you guys have to say. anyone here have a damaged EGT probe? and if so, what brand was it? i would like to clear the air hear, so please speak up.


edit: here is a link to the article on banks website:
http://bankspower.com/techarticles/s...t-is-important

i trust gale banks. he's bald and bald people are smart.

Spam bot - usual Zilvia poster - hard to differentiate their intelligence... The spam bot stuff is getting annoying.

Originally Posted by Sleepy_Steve

That would make sense, I think I read in maximum boost or some other turbo book that only about 25% of the energy to spin the turbine comes from the kinetic energy of the exhaust gas pulses. The rest of it comes from turning heat energy in the exhaust stream into kinetic energy due to (paraphrasing here) the magical snail shape of the turbine housing.

If MOST of the energy to spool the turbo comes from heat, then it would make sense that a much higher temp is seen pre-turbine, and that the difference between pre-turbine and post turbine temps gets larger when you're in boost and the compressor is asking the turbine to do more work.

Yep, the temp drop is much higher while in boost. That's also why a post-turbine EGT probe is not a good idea, as the temp drop through the turbine is variable.

You can see how much hotter the manifold and turbine housing is vs. the outlet housing is in my pic. That's because the engine is not cruising, it's either in boost, or braking (low flow). So the delta T is high across the turbine at all times.

[ixfxi]

Originally Posted by Def

So the delta T is high across the turbine at all times.

sorry def, i just dont have the mental capacity to understand thermodynamics, physics, or most types of basic math. i flunked pre-algebra a couple times. mostly because i was distracted by my math teacher's panties.

merry xmas mofos

[5280VertDET]

So, I am bringing this from the dead with this video:

Mostly an ad for nordlock, but informative non-the-less.

[hobbs]

I really like NordLock washers, they worked great on all my SR setups. One issue is the thickness through, which you really can't get away from and will end up with issues like I had on my GTR. I ended up swapping the NordLock for some copper nuts because I just wasn't super confident with the lack of threads with the washers.

[codyace]

Nordlocks work great, and you probably would have been ok in that example.

I've found best luck with new OEM studs and nuts on the manifold, along with the Z32 locking tabs.

ON the turbine outlet however I've moved onto the porsche/vw copper deformed thread nuts.

Originally Posted by ixfxi

sorry def, i just dont have the mental capacity to understand thermodynamics, physics, or most types of basic math. i flunked pre-algebra a couple times. mostly because i was distracted by my math teacher's panties.

merry xmas mofos

It's quote's like this that make me miss the old Zilvia

[derass]

Originally Posted by codyace

I've found best luck with new OEM studs and nuts on the manifold, along with the Z32 locking tabs.

ON the turbine outlet however I've moved onto the...copper deformed thread nuts.

I've also had good luck with this combination after 5 seasons of track days. I did however have a stud break at the turbine outlet. It was just a regular one from the hardware store. I would have been better off using OEM studs or aftermarket inconel.

[Sileighty_85]

On my RB26 Build Ill be using a Combo of Prevailing Torque Nuts and OEM Locking Tabs for the T2 flange and oversize serrated Flange nuts for the elbows.
(Nothing Torqued down yet)


Never had an issue with the stock hardware on my SR in the past 9 years of beating on it. Decided to upgrade as an extra preventive measure since the RB26 is not space friendly.

[Croustibat]

Just use Vband clamps everywhere ... seals better, no gasket, no stud, no drama. This was not available before, now it is an option on every quality turbo / manifold.

[RalliartRsX]

...........Or just use stock Inconel hardware ($2.53 per stud), nordlock (30 shipped) and PROPERLY secure the downpipe.

Once I redid my downpipe and installed a stronger than stock hanger, I have had ZERO issues with blowing gaskets (did 8 or 9 track days on this setup with nary an issue). I removed the system this weekend and there were zero signs of exhaust gasket compromise. It actually still has the stock sheen from being new. This also included one track day with 100+ degree outside temps for the entire day.

In addition, the turbine outlet sees much less temp than the turbine inlet, so non exotic hardware works just fine in that capacity.

[Kingtal0n]

I've had no problems using OEM hardware on any past 240sx, you just need to get all the support brackets exhaust hanger brackets proper. Think about it, you can buy a brand new or low mileage silvia which has all oem parts and drive it 100 or 200k without taking out the engine to fix the exhaust gaskets every 20k like we all pretend


For EGT on a stock location t25 flange definitely put it at the outlet (after turbo). Reasons:
1. you might want to remove it at some point
2. putting extra holes in anything scares me
3. tap a O2 sensor bung so you can take the EGT sensor out whenever you want and plug the hole without worrying about leaks. You could also use it for a narrowband. Widebands need to be well away from the turbo but the narrowband is fine to use right there at the outlet.
4. speaking of which, the hole is already there. OEM outlets have a sensor hole we use for EGT, then go back to the narrowband when done.

[e1_griego]

^You are also just street driving an SR with a 5k rev limit or whatever. Apples to bananas comparison in terms of use.

My stage 8 fasteners seems to be working well -- survived a few track days and haven't had any issues. Took everything apart a few months ago and it all looked brand new, still. Re-did the t2 gasket anyway because I had a few extra gaskets laying around.

For the turbine side, I quit using the distortion-head stuff and I just use stainless nuts and lock washers instead. Easier to pull apart and the nut never galls to the point where it pulls the stud out with it.

[RalliartRsX]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

I've had no problems using OEM hardware on any past 240sx, you just need to get all the support brackets exhaust hanger brackets proper. Think about it, you can buy a brand new or low mileage silvia which has all oem parts and drive it 100 or 200k without taking out the engine to fix the exhaust gaskets every 20k like we all pretend


For EGT on a stock location t25 flange definitely put it at the outlet (after turbo). Reasons:
1. you might want to remove it at some point
2. putting extra holes in anything scares me
3. tap a O2 sensor bung so you can take the EGT sensor out whenever you want and plug the hole without worrying about leaks. You could also use it for a narrowband. Widebands need to be well away from the turbo but the narrowband is fine to use right there at the outlet.
4. speaking of which, the hole is already there. OEM outlets have a sensor hole we use for EGT, then go back to the narrowband when done.

Placement of the EGT in the turbine outlet does not give accurate engine exhaust temperatures. The turbine itself acts as an absorber and heat sink. Look up Laws of thermo.

The whole point of the EGT is to measure the temperature of the unabated A/F mixture from the ENGINE not the TURBO, and any impingement from an outside source (gases expanding over the turbine wheel and loses to the turbine housing) will cause inaccurate readings.

To Kingat0n

1) EGT probes are designed to withstand hundreds of thousands of heat cycles with peak temps over 1800 F (at which point you have a litany of other problems). It does not need to be removed constantly
2) Fair opinion
3) EGT and O2 bungs are two completely different sizes. The EGT is a probe. The O2 sensor is not
4) Incorrect. The OEM outlet has two provisions (for the S13) for EGR and O2. No OEM SR20DET has any provisions for EGT (especially considering the ECU itself has not provisions to actually read and adjust abased off Exhaust Temps).

[RalliartRsX]

Below is a proper quote to show just how DRASTIC a difference it mounting the EGT before and after the turbo

Taken from

EGT Measurements pre and post turbine

I originally posted this on TDR but also thought this might be of interest to some of you guys.

I have always wondered about what people have said about the difference in the readings before and after the turbo. I had to see for myself. Was hard to believe that the readings could be that different in a span of about 8". I know about expanding gasses and all that but seemed hard to accept that kind of difference. I originally had a direct reading (thermocouple)US Gear pyro located after the turbo and just last week installed a new ISSPRO electronic pyro in the ATS manifold (in front of the turbo) I put on last year. I went on a trip to Washington last Friday and returned Monday. Pulled a 5500 pound load up, came back with an empty trailer at 2250 pounds. Took a series of reading both directions and only took "stable state" readings. some were pulling a grade and some were on flat ground. Found some scary things and thought I'd pass them along.

The direct reading pyro is very slow to respond when compared to the new ISSPRO pyro. I could put the new pyro into the red and then cool back down before the old pyro hardly moved.

Also took readings with the tranny in OD going up a hill. Got the pre turbo temp up to 1200 degrees then shifted out of OD to get the RPM's up a little. Saw an immediate 150 degree drop in the EGT. This alone is a good reason to shift out of OD when towing up a hill!

Here are the readings I took pre and post turbo-at idle the readings were basically the same as the turbo wasn't working at all.

PRE POST TURBO
600 400
700 500
750 550
800 580
875 620
900 640
1000 700
1100 750
1150 800

As you can see, there is a 350 degree difference at the upper end of the scale. Based on this, I would try to keep the post readings at 900 or less if that was the only reading I had. I used to push it to 950 and a little higher when towing which put me up at 1300 degrees. Sure glad I put the new unit on as it is a much more realistic reading!

[KAT-PWR]

Awesome info, thanks dude!

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by e1_griego

^You are also just street driving an SR with a 5k rev limit or whatever. Apples to bananas comparison in terms of use.

My stage 8 fasteners seems to be working well -- survived a few track days and haven't had any issues. Took everything apart a few months ago and it all looked brand new, still. Re-did the t2 gasket anyway because I had a few extra gaskets laying around.

For the turbine side, I quit using the distortion-head stuff and I just use stainless nuts and lock washers instead. Easier to pull apart and the nut never galls to the point where it pulls the stud out with it.

That is absolutely correct, I do drive my car very gently most of the time. Nevertheless, I have suffered exhaust hanger/gasket related failures over the years driving them nicely. I would never weld on any engine parts I care about. I also don't like fixing blown gaskets or exhaust leaks. My solution to both is to swap in a different kind of engine if it gives me any more trouble, and I think she knows and that is how we got here...

Originally Posted by RalliartRsX

Placement of the EGT in the turbine outlet does not give accurate engine exhaust temperatures. The turbine itself acts as an absorber and heat sink. Look up Laws of thermo.

LOL telling me to look up thermo. You kid

Heres how that went down:
Pros of tapping manifold for EGT: more accurate read

Cons of tapping manifold for EGT: Still not sure of placement (WHERE in the manifold is ideal? Is it close enough to a particular valve or cylinder that runs hotter than the rest?), Extra hole my exhaust system to leak from, daily driver that needs to go 100k+ miles so the chances of something loosening up by itself like this is greater, don't want to worry about an extra sensor, Would like to be able to remove it easily and not leave behind a hole. Is there even a plug capable of blocking a hole I make in the manifold? I dont think a typical alum/brass 1/8" npt plug would work there. Also, what if you screw up making the hole or tapping it? Rip all the threads out of it or put it in sideways is a real possibility.

Just decided I didn't want to deal with all that extra possible nonsense on an already almost antique engine which sees only light duty.

The whole point of the EGT is to measure the temperature of the unabated A/F mixture from the ENGINE not the TURBO, and any impingement from an outside source (gases expanding over the turbine wheel and loses to the turbine housing) will cause inaccurate readings.

Eh, so for me, after using EGT sensors for like 10 or 15 years, I realize they are more like extra confirmation for issues with fueling and timing trim, and if you are really good you can use them for total timing in street cars under boost or economy. In a real lean situation, say your fuel pressure suddenly takes a 10 or 20psi dive, your EGT will skyrocket and the engine will still run decent, up to the point where it melts. But, since we all also have a wideband in the car, we hopefully caught it loooong before the EGT "woke you up" and so the EGT sensor is somewhat useless in that respect. What it really helps with, like I said, is dialing in your final timing and economy situation, and one more thing: long drawn out performance sessions, such as making lap after lap around a track. In these situations, the combustion temps can climb climb climb loop after loop, and so you want to keep an eye on the EGT gauge to make sure you do not melt anything. If that is the kind of vehicle you have, then sure, tap the manifold, heck tap each runner; you need to be using a nice aftermarket or home made manifold in those situations, and if you are doing it right, you have methanol/water injection, and coatings/wraps/blankets on everything. Nobody should be taking a stock manifold SR to any high power paid drivers competition level event in the first place; and if they are, an EGT gauge is not going to save you from a worse fate.


1) EGT probes are designed to withstand hundreds of thousands of heat cycles with peak temps over 1800 F (at which point you have a litany of other problems). It does not need to be removed constantly

Response: Lots of cough* nissan owners are cheap, and use $30 ebay EGT gauges. cough cough. Those gauges could just... oh I dont know... stop working. And if you tapped your manifold, oh dear lord now you have all this extra crap running all over the place with all the other crap, and it doesn't even work anymore. IMO save yourself the hassle... if you don't really know how to use one or even sure if you need one, the last thing I want is a hole in my exhaust manifold.

2) Fair opinion

3) EGT and O2 bungs are two completely different sizes. The EGT is a probe. The O2 sensor is not

Response: You buy an O2 plug and tap that. One day, when your $30 gauge quits, just replace it with an O2 sensor. *THINK*


4) Incorrect. The OEM outlet has two provisions (for the S13) for EGR and O2. No OEM SR20DET has any provisions for EGT (especially considering the ECU itself has not provisions to actually read and adjust abased off Exhaust Temps)

Response: I mean the hole for the O2 sensor. Just buy a plug and tap that for the EGT sensor is what I meant. If using a $30 gauge on an OEM manifold in a daily driver, this is adequate. I can tell that when I pull 5* of timing off the top of my cruise, my EGT moves 30-50*F hotter, so for the sake of argument lets just say it does exactly what it needs to do in my application.

[Bleakley]

Originally Posted by ixfxi

Photos of M10 hardware. I simply cutoff the excess HEX portion of the Toyota stud, fit just fine.

Turbo Manifold was drilled 9.5mm for M10x1.25
Turbine Housing bolt holes were enlarged to M11.5 to slide over the studs

My drill & cross vice are NOT accurate. If you want accuracy, take the shit to a machine shop and have them do it right. I was on the jazz.

Note: I still have not decided which type of nuts I will be using.

Been about a year and a half since. Was wondering how everything's been holding up?

[codyace]

Originally Posted by Bleakley

Been about a year and a half since. Was wondering how everything's been holding up?

I think the last Mike's car ran was just before he did that...haha :P

[Bleakley]

Lol! Daaammmnn. So much for feedback.. :/

[Jorgs_7]

Bump for more discussion,

I think I've blown about every gasket on turbo exhaust after some serious track abuse.

Turbo to manifold,

Manifold to elbow,

Elbow to downpipe,

So after reading 5 pages, I have no conclusion.

Im not going to weld my manifold to turbine house, Im not going to tack weld the nuts/studs.

What IS the best proven solution here?

[TheRealSy90]

I still stand by welding the turbine housing to the manifold. I'd rather replace it with a new sub $200 housing if I want to sell the turbo by about the second time I replace the gasket...


Funny you bumped it I was just reading through this whole thread yesterday lol.

[derass]

See my post above (#128). I've great great luck with the new locking tabs and stock hardware at the turbine inlet. And new studs and stover nuts at the turbine outlet. 5 years of tracking, never had any hardware come loose.

[ixfxi]

Originally Posted by Bleakley

Been about a year and a half since. Was wondering how everything's been holding up?

Originally Posted by codyace

I think the last Mike's car ran was just before he did that...haha :P

sitting in my garage, its been holding up just great. shame i still have not driven my car.

all things considering, i now have 3 turbo projects pending so i'll try to post if i ever get something concrete to add here

[Rustys14]

Back from the dead!

Hate to bump an old thread but I'm curious if anyone's had any luck using copper gaskets in the turbo to manifold location? I know that some of the professional import drag teams run copper in place of MLS between the turbo and manifold on super high boost applications but their cars don't see the sustained high temperatures that ours do. I'm looking specifically at the SCE offerings like this:



I do mostly drifting but still manage to burn through at least one gasket a season and I can only see it getting more frequent now that my friend has talked me into doing some actual lap days this year. My exhaust is solidly mounted and I run a flex section so it seems like heat is the main factor that's causing the failures.

I'm redoing my current turbo setup and my plan is to have the mating surfaces on my manifold machined smooth/flat and run a copper gasket. I also found some ARP manifold studs and copper nuts in the garage that I'll probably run in place of the OEM hardware. I figured I would check in and see if anyone's had any luck with something similar before I end up having to pull the manifold again in a couple months...

[anti tyler]

Originally Posted by Rustys14

Back from the dead!

Hate to bump an old thread but I'm curious if anyone's had any luck using copper gaskets in the turbo to manifold location? I know that some of the professional import drag teams run copper in place of MLS between the turbo and manifold on super high boost applications but their cars don't see the sustained high temperatures that ours do. I'm looking specifically at the SCE offerings like this:



I do mostly drifting but still manage to burn through at least one gasket a season and I can only see it getting more frequent now that my friend has talked me into doing some actual lap days this year. My exhaust is solidly mounted and I run a flex section so it seems like heat is the main factor that's causing the failures.

I'm redoing my current turbo setup and my plan is to have the mating surfaces on my manifold machined smooth/flat and run a copper gasket. I also found some ARP manifold studs and copper nuts in the garage that I'll probably run in place of the OEM hardware. I figured I would check in and see if anyone's had any luck with something similar before I end up having to pull the manifold again in a couple months...

I'd actually like to hear some feedback on these as well.

Without doing any research, I'm not sure what the benefit is supposed to be, The rapid cooling capabilities of copper? Because it surely copper will melt at a lower temp than the MLS or thing solid metal gaskets.

I've never actually had one of these blow out on me. The only time a had a manifold gasket failure (either turbo side or head side) was because a bolt/stud backed out ever so slightly causing a loss of constant pressure on the gasket.

In for some first hand knowledge.

[Bleakley]

Upgrade turbo to manifold bolts one size.
Upgrade to Stage 8 hardware.

Done.

Stage 8 hardware can be annoying but I haven't had a problem. Removing it is pretty easy with a small flathead... Just pull all the clips and triangles first, then loosen the nuts.

[ixfxi]

Originally Posted by Scott@FontanaNissan

the lines are different for the S15 than for the S13

S13 Block oil feed banjo bolt: 16432-79E0A
S14 Block oil line banjo bolt: 16432-79E0A
S14 Turbo oil feed banjo Bolt 16432-69F1A
S14 Turbo Oil Feed Hard line: 15192-69F20
S15 Spec R Block line banjo bolt: 16432-79E0A
S15 Spec R Turbo side banjo bolt: 16432-69F1A
S15 Turbo Oil feed hard line: 15192-75F11


so I would imagine that the S15 hardline is what has the oil flow restriction since that is the only different part number between S14 and S15 (S13 line looks completely different compared to S15)

*** YOU DUMB MOTHER FUCKERS ***

all these years and there is no discussion other than this thread when it comes to the oil restriction in the turbo plumbing. Until today. Years later, I needed another bolt for another car I am building.

The above photo speaks for itself, the restriction is inside the BLOCK-SIDE banjo bolt. Not the hard line, not the turbo oil banjo... the BLOCK-SIDE (M12x1.25).

And, according to Juan, SAME PN for S13/S14/S15... so the restriction is all the same, about 1.5mm...

Wow, this was a lot more headache than it was worth.

[TheRealSy90]

That wouldn't make sense as the bb t28 needs the restriction that the journal bearing turbos don't have. So why would it have same PN, same 1.5mm hole across all three?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ixfxi]

as garrett states on their site, both turbos, journal or bb, require a reasonable amount of pressure that needs to be measured at the turbo.

WITH the factory hard lines AND the factory banjo bolt (restricted, shown above) - nissan most likely was happy with the amount of oil pressure at the turbo.

i think the problem exists when people run larger oil supply (flex lines) such as 4an, due to ease of availability & lower cost.

on the miata i am building, i bent my own hard lines using 3/16 tubing (3an fittings) and no restrictor at all. i am pretty confident that this should suffice with the sr20det t25 journal bearing turbo.