What standalone ecu do u recomend?!?!

[fatduece]

Lmao. My setup is far from the typical hoonibro piles you see at the track

[hanzbrady]

Originally Posted by fatduece

Lmao. My setup is far from the typical hoonibro piles you see at the track

Well obviously, it doesn't even have a blow off valve. No JDM points 4 u /:

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by ADIDASilvias

Interesting. My reasoning behind running it cold side was based on the back pressure of the throttle body butterfly valve suddenly closing and causing the pressure wave. So if I located it close to the throttle body it would catch the back pressure wave as early as possible, thereby mitigating the effects. The Synapse DV transient response is super fast so I thought I could get away with a VTA since the pressure spike would be taken care of almost immediately and the valve closed quick enough to retain sufficient pressure in the IC and piping.

You need to ask yourself, where is the drawback of having the pressure spike at the throttle body? Is there something wrong with having a high pressure spike in this location? What exactly is the goal behind evacuating the pressure in the plumbing?

In short, any pressure spike seen near/at the throttle body is not going to increase wear and tear of any parts in that region. The part you are trying to protect is the compressor wheel.

[hanzbrady]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

You need to ask yourself, where is the drawback of having the pressure spike at the throttle body? Is there something wrong with having a high pressure spike in this location? What exactly is the goal behind evacuating the pressure in the plumbing?

In short, any pressure spike seen near/at the throttle body is not going to increase wear and tear of any parts in that region. The part you are trying to protect is the compressor wheel.

I agree, the only time that you see throttle body failures are on insanely high boost situations or in nitrous applications. That's why race builds, especially drag cars use aftermarket throttle bodies such as the Ross units.

[ADIDASilvias]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

You need to ask yourself, where is the drawback of having the pressure spike at the throttle body? Is there something wrong with having a high pressure spike in this location? What exactly is the goal behind evacuating the pressure in the plumbing?

In short, any pressure spike seen near/at the throttle body is not going to increase wear and tear of any parts in that region. The part you are trying to protect is the compressor wheel.

I get what you are saying. Do you think the longer run of vacuum tube from intake to BOV will result in any BOV lag?

It wasn't necessarily the idea that you need to protect the TB or equipment, but moreso that the pressure wave would be caught early and dealt with prior to the shift event ending and the TB opening again. I am unsure of the speed of the pressure wave and whether it reaches back to the BOV next to the turbo quick enough to open the valve, vent the spike, and close before the exhaust is spooling the compressor again. Could this result in overspinning the compressor wheel? By that I mean, if the BOV is open and the turbo is being spooled could the compressor rpm spike without the pressure building in the IC plumbing?

I'm just throwing my thoughts out here, not trying to be obstinate. There are a lot of things happening at this point in the cycle, and the fluid mechanics isn't a simple equation. I did well in Fluid Dynamics in college, but that was 10+ years ago and I don't deal with it regularly at work.

[TheRealSy90]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

1. If you have an expensive engine, say 30k, you use the AEM or similar ahead of a PFC for its additional features. The PFC is a bare bones for "cheap" engines usually daily drivers on a budget. I've mentioned this 100x and fully support the use of better stand-alone systems if the application calls for it. IF the application calls for it.
2. The PFC contains what every stand-alone contains: fuel cut rev limiter. Which is more than enough for a daily/street application at any power level, and safe to use.
3. Even the AEM does not contain a fuel cut safety switch.

I just wanted to touch on these real quick. I think whether the application calls for it or not is really up to the user. If I can instrument a stock sr20 with enough sensors and fail-safes to make it last way longer than it ever would have without them then I'm all for it. And even better for my built motor if I ever decide to put it in.


So it has a fuel cut rev limiter. What if oil pressure is low? The PFC is gonna run the engine until the rods come out since it doesn't have an input for that parameter. That's pretty important.


I have a fuel pressure sensor in my regulator wired directly to the AEM. This is a fuel cut safety. If my fuel pressure ever drops it will cut the engine off or cut the boost pressure, pull timing, limp mode or whatever I tell it to do in that event. What am I missing here? I don't see how any external fuel cut off would be better.

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by ADIDASilvias

I get what you are saying. Do you think the longer run of vacuum tube from intake to BOV will result in any BOV lag?

Longer vacuum lines and longer intercooler plumbing will create more lag in setups, slower response times, larger pressure differentials per unit time. Large diameter, short vacuum lines work better (more unit area) than long, thin vacuum lines.

It wasn't necessarily the idea that you need to protect the TB or equipment, but moreso that the pressure wave would be caught early and dealt with prior to the shift event ending and the TB opening again.

I believe you are overlooking the pressure in the hot side as a significant factor. When you lift to shift (or from WOT), the pressure is already high in the hot side (whether you have a spike or not in the cold side) and it needs to be 0psi or less, in the next instant. If the pressure at your "relief valve" drops 1psi, it must then drop the pressure in the nearby plumbing 1psi as well, releasing air molecules until that happens, and then the intercooler, and then the hot pipe, and then finally the compressor outlet will see the 1psi drop after all those air molecules are let go from the other side. The quantity of air molecules being vented in that situation is too great to expect a hole of that size (typical bypass) to vent the entire intercooler plumbing and both intercooler tubes in the time it takes to let go of the throttle. Some stock engines use a cold-side bypass (S15 silvia iirc) but they have a relatively tiny volume of plumbing to deal with (side mount intercooler). A cold side bypass becomes less useful as the plumbing volume prior to it becomes larger. Think of a situation where you install a 10000L intercooler and fill it with boost pressure. Now try venting all of that air through a cold side bypass- It would never drop the pressure on the hot side in time to shift, the compressor would be surging the entire time.

I am unsure of the speed of the pressure wave and whether it reaches back to the BOV next to the turbo quick enough to open the valve, vent the spike, and close before the exhaust is spooling the compressor again.

Any spike in pressure is brief and negligible, as the engine turns and continues to turn, even at idle, air molecules will quickly be removed from the cold side of the plumbing first. It isn't the spike you should worry about, it is the pressure already built in the plumbing from the boosting engine and the sudden stop to flow that accompanies the shutting throttle body. The pressure doesn't need to spike; it's already very high (boost pressure), and needs to vent from the compressor wheel outlet. The reason we vent is to keep the compressor wheel from feeling the high pressure at the outlet while also having a no or low flow situation, which runs the compressor off it's map and into surge. If the compressor cannot freely turn and send air molecules into the outlet, whether there is pressure or not, even in a vacuum, there may be consequences. It will not be beneficial to any setup.

Could this result in overspinning the compressor wheel? By that I mean, if the BOV is open and the turbo is being spooled could the compressor rpm spike without the pressure building in the IC plumbing?

To spin the wheel you need exhaust, and if the user shuts the throttle body the exhaust will suddenly also diminish accordingly. So regardless of whether the compressor is even hooked up to anything at all, it cannot spin without the accompanying exhaust flow. The biggest contributors to overspinning compressors is users who push their turbo past its limitations, and users with boost leaks that don't know it.

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by TheRealSy90

I just wanted to touch on these real quick. I think whether the application calls for it or not is really up to the user.

it is entirely in the users hands how she/he uses the vehicle. If I want to run my car on a track or daily driver it, that is my decision yes?

If I can instrument a stock sr20 with enough sensors and fail-safes to make it last way longer than it ever would have without them then I'm all for it. And even better for my built motor if I ever decide to put it in.

I agree fail safes are good

So it has a fuel cut rev limiter. What if oil pressure is low? The PFC is gonna run the engine until the rods come out since it doesn't have an input for that parameter. That's pretty important.
I have a fuel pressure sensor in my regulator wired directly to the AEM. This is a fuel cut safety. If my fuel pressure ever drops it will cut the engine off or cut the boost pressure, pull timing, limp mode or whatever I tell it to do in that event. What am I missing here? I don't see how any external fuel cut off would be better.

The big picture is to avoid depending on the computer for everything. Digital processors, machine code languages and programmers make mistakes all the time, how many firmware updates do you think AEM and Megasquirt have had over the years to get where they are? There are some factory ECU with factory fuel cuts that still cause detonation on OEM vehicles for some reason, out there. The programming of these devices is sometimes done by individuals not knowledgeable in the field of auto mechanics or combustion engine theory. My point was only that, for the sake of all computers in the world, of any manufacture, we should not solely depend on their correct operation if we have other applicable options. I.e. $15 fuel cut devices and expensive external oil pressure data-logging are optional and recommended no matter what computer you decide to use, to supplement their operation if deemed necessary.

[derass]

Great discussion! There are some strong opinions here, but it's good reading for anyone choosing a tuning solution.

Now for me to fuel the fire and play Haltech rep lol ( I have a Platinum Sport 1000 on my SR)

aftermarket computers in general have a hard time dealing with the high resolution CAS of the sr20det...AEM has been known for years to fail when using the OEM cas disc, all kinds of trouble, so much that they now offer their own disc.

I wonder why it is that power FC plugs right in and works using the OEM sr20det disc, whereas all the expensive aftermarket options fall on their faces with it. Is it perhaps, that maybe, the Power FC is a well designed, more well suited, well tested applied research and development for stand-alone engine management for our engines?

Just want to point out that Haltech works flawlessly with the SR20 Disc.

Oh I completely agree, for the first 3-4 minutes after I start my wildly cammed PFC sr20 car, I need to keep my foot on the gas to keep the RPM slightly higher than it would otherwise be, for peace of mind of course (oil pressure related concerns). This is the only notable drawback to the Power FC that I am aware of (idle speed fluctuations which require elegant solutions).

This is such a small price to pay, I bear it no mind. It isn't worth jumping to a $2000 computer over this 3-4 minutes of holding the gas pedal slightly each morning. If you can't handle that, you shouldn't be driving a wildly modified vehicle.

I would argue that this highlights the shortcomings of the PFC. Having to sit in the car and manually hold the idle is just plain lousy in my opinion.

haltech has several staring/warmup maps.

Perhaps the older E-models or newer Elite's do, but the popular Platinum Sport models do not. Engine-start settings can only be configured one way per "tune".

So it has a fuel cut rev limiter. What if oil pressure is low? The PFC is gonna run the engine until the rods come out since it doesn't have an input for that parameter. That's pretty important.

If [anything goes out of the desired range] it will cut the engine off or cut the boost pressure, pull timing, limp mode or whatever I tell it to do in that event. What am I missing here? I don't see how any external fuel cut off would be better.

There was some discussion about EMS features not being used and therefore not being worth the cost. I also used fail-safes as described above (Haltech's operate identically). Also made use of closed-loop Wideband O2 Control, Electric Boost Control, Radiator Fan Control and Data-logging. The ability to switch between MAF, MAP and Injector Size on the fly without re-tuning was also quite useful.

[Kingtal0n]

ran across this thought i would share

http://www.sr20-forum.com/informatio...omparison.html

[hanzbrady]

Okay while we have a haltech rep here, do you currently offer any plug and play options for the S13 SR?

[derass]

lol I'm not actually a Haltech rep, was just poking fun because someone above was talking about a PFC rep being in this thread too!

But my Platinum Sport 1000 is "plug-and-play" for S13 SR. It uses a patch harness to connect the factory engine harness to the EMS. Like this:




Stock harness plugs into the blue part and the 2 black connectors plug into the EMS.

There's also the Platinum PRO Plug-In for S15 SR.

[TheRealSy90]

I definitely like the ability to stick my hand in and start the car when I'm not necessarily wanting to get in it yet. Yay cold start maps.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[derass]

Ahhh, I know what you meant now, I misinterpreted. You're right. The start settings (pulse prime, crank timing) each have a table based on coolant temp. IACV also has cold and hot settings based on user defined thresholds.

[Kingtal0n]

Idle speed and idle airflow are the same thing. You need a $0.35 vacuum line plumbed into the car from say, the brake booster line, to get it to idle at any speed you want cold, regardless of what ECU is installed. Then, stick a $0.02 bolt in it when it warms up to bring the idle back down. I also had another easy idea that I intent to implement and test soon. A circuit to energize the A/C airflow of the IACV when you initially start the vehicle should raise the idle speed as long as the circuit is energized. I am not sure how to time it yet (might just use a switch) but this will accomplish the same thing- extra airflow during cold start for sr20 engines, and using only a single wire. Either way, a switch and some wires can't cost more than a couple dollars.

Still not worth $2000 to fix this, what is merely a $0.37-$2.00 problem. I just don't get the thought process there, but maybe that is because I accept that engine airflow adjustment is as a simple as a line and a bolt, and it does not bother me? Furthermore, it is only an issue for severely cammed engines (HKS 272 in my engine) and that camshaft is specifically for engines making over 500bhp (not a 400hp camshaft, those would idle like stock without issue) and since nobody in their right mind should use an sr20 to make over 400bhp anyways, that means this problem literally doesn't exist except for those rare instances where you want the camshaft lope without the power (like myself). And further, further more, there seems to be some kind of adjustable device on the front of the throttle body I have not attempted to adjust yet, and it might just do the trick with no further additional "special treatment".

I am not a rep of any kind. I am a broke ass college student, and we find ways to make things work while there is no income, then depending on how lazy we are, changes how much time we spend worrying about these details. Basically it all comes down to saving money, and making a profit by driving a car. You can profit from a 240sx... I have every single car I ever owned. But it wasn't by throwing 2k here and 3k there into an inconvenience I could fix with a $2.00 line and bolt.

[TheRealSy90]

Running a vacuum line into the car to plug it every time it warms up just seems extremely ghetto. Let's throw carburetors on it with a choke adjustment lever while we're at it :P

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by TheRealSy90

Running a vacuum line into the car to plug it every time it warms up just seems extremely ghetto. Let's throw carburetors on it with a choke adjustment lever while we're at it :P

1. i would do it to save $1850.00 USD as well as hundred hours tuning a new platform and reading a 200 page manual and wiring/logging inspection that goes with it, and possible trouble shooting involved/paying somebody to do it.

2. the brake booster essentially does the same thing, everytime you mash the brake pedal its like taking the bolt out and putting it back in: un-metered air enters the system and the engine runs lean. But you don't call the vacuum assisted brake booster mechanism "ghetto" despite it acting identically to a hidden line/bolt.

3. I offered several other options and also pointed out that if you aren't using a huge camshaft it is a non-issue.

[TheRealSy90]

So shouldn't you be able to cold start the car with your foot on the brake? Without this vacuum line shenanigans.

[zombiewolf513]

Originally Posted by TheRealSy90

Running a vacuum line into the car to plug it every time it warms up just seems extremely ghetto. Let's throw carburetors on it with a choke adjustment lever while we're at it :P

Ive seen people run a sort of modified choke lever for this. Crushed/rolled the tube and locked in

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by TheRealSy90

So shouldn't you be able to cold start the car with your foot on the brake? Without this vacuum line shenanigans.

no, its just a one time thing. the vacuum only leaks when you STEP DOWN on the brake. Once the pedal stops moving there is no more leak. The point was simply that these leaks exist, even if you are not aware of them. Its part of the big picture of where air goes on an engine, lots of people don't realize the brake mechanism is a source for unmetered air. Try pumping the brake and watch the wideband go lean.

[ADIDASilvias]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

1. i would do it to save $1850.00 USD [snip]

To be fair, and compare apples to apples cost wise, almost NO ONE is going to find a Power FC for $350. I looked for almost 3 months before I determined that a used unit for the RB25 Neo was never going to come up for sale. A S1/S2 perhaps is more possible, but still super rare.

So cost wise, the L-Jetro clocks in at $850 new with the Commander, plus you are looking at $350 for the Datalogit, and $150 for a Windows Tablet. So $1350 for the capabilities of the ECU plus tuning ability.

A D-Jetro clocks in at $1050 plus $350 for the Datalogit, and $150 for a Windows Tablet. So $1550 for the capabilities of the ECU plus tuning ability.

My Link G4+ GTTLink plug in ecu with a $150 windows tablet will ultimately cost $1317 and has all the capabilities of the Haltech or AEM.

The AEM I6 506 costs $1400 plus a $150 Windows Tablet, the overall cost is $1550.

The Haltech PS 1000 costs $1519 plus a $150 Windows Tablet - $1669

Comparison:

L-Jetro, Datalogit, Win Tablet - $1250
D-Jetro, Datalogit, Win Tablet - $1550
Link G4+, Win Tablet - $1317 <- NEO price, S1/S2 is mildly cheaper
AEM I6 506, Win Tablet - $1550
Haltech PS 1000, Win Tablet - $1669

These are prices I just pulled from eBay, so YMMV slightly, but it gives you a good idea of the true cost without finding a diamond in the rough with a used PFC.

[pacotaco345]

Originally Posted by hanzbrady

So inefficient use of funds and resources because lazy hoonibro drift car attitude?

#aintcare bro

Lol some people just don't want to run BOVs. I don't run one on my car because compressor surge sounds way less lame than some chirping wooshing noise every time you let off the throttle. I only want the car to make 300 wheel and I'm fine with buying a $400 turbo every two years, so I don't care. He hasn't publicly advertised what his car looks like though Mr. Mazworx, but your hooptie kustom krylon krinkle koat kore support looks pretty rad hoonibro...


Anyways, so no real complaints about the AEM infinity? I've been trying to track down why my car suddenly stopped wanting to coldstart for about 2 months now with no luck.. Thinking about refreshing the motor then going infinity with a WS pro harness when I get my tax return and never worrying about it again.

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by ADIDASilvias

To be fair, and compare apples to apples cost wise, almost NO ONE is going to find a Power FC for $350. I looked for almost 3 months before I determined that a used unit for the RB25 Neo was never going to come up for sale. A S1/S2 perhaps is more possible, but still super rare.

So cost wise, the L-Jetro clocks in at $850 new with the Commander, plus you are looking at $350 for the Datalogit, and $150 for a Windows Tablet. So $1350 for the capabilities of the ECU plus tuning ability.

cost is relative and depends on how fast you want something. I've seen MANY power FC on ebay for $400-$450, more than I could count. You have to be patient. Also, I never owned a tablet, any laptop or even a desktop computer can work. You dont need a tablet to tune with.

Heres one for $300
http://www.ebay.com/itm/apexi-power-...FXx19z&vxp=mtr

and $400
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apexi-Power-...9X3oZR&vxp=mtr

and $300 again
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apexi-power-...JX0so~&vxp=mtr


they come up all the time for common swaps. Just be patient. Then, a MAF power FC, can EASILY be tuned via commander (no need to buy a data-logit) the data-logit is for people who want to tune the basemap of a D-jetro (map sensor type). If you are into map sensors, to begin with, you should be in the 500+RWHP crowd. No reason to go map until 480rwhp+. Therefore, you might be looking at better ECU options anyways (AEM, Haltech, etc) I would never suggest somebody buy a brand new PFC D-jetro over an AEM for 500+rwhp setups. Personally, I would never spend over $500 on any power FC, that isn't an option for me.

Originally Posted by pacotaco345

Lol some people just don't want to run BOVs. I don't run one on my car because compressor surge sounds way less lame than some chirping wooshing noise every time you let off the throttle.

This is novice/newb thinking. I have 2 bypass valves on my car and neither one of them makes a chirp or woosh noise. The noise is for beginners, first time turbo owners. A truly well setup turbocharger system incorporates significant insulation, and is deathly silent, because a silent exhaust/tone overall is an enormous benefit to listening to the engine itself. Noise in general will put a damper on your ability to diagnose the engine, mechanically.

[ADIDASilvias]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

Heres one for $300
http://www.ebay.com/itm/apexi-power-...FXx19z&vxp=mtr

S13 SR20det

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

and $400
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apexi-Power-...9X3oZR&vxp=mtr

Mitsu EVO X

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

and $300 again
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apexi-power-...JX0so~&vxp=mtr

S13 SR20det


Am I missing something, or did I just state something specific to the RB25det the OP was looking at for a stand alone ECU?

Look for used RB25det Power FC units. 0, let me repeat, 0 come up on eBay. Plenty of RB26, but NONE for RB25.

Be patient, that's your answer? Well then I should just be patient and find a used Haltech for half or less than the original and the point still stands.

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

cost is relative and depends on how fast you want something. I've seen MANY power FC on ebay for $400-$450, more than I could count. You have to be patient. Also, I never owned a tablet, any laptop or even a desktop computer can work. You dont need a tablet to tune with.

So remove the tablet from the totals, it's in EVERY one. The cost difference is still the same. I only stated 'Windows Tablet' because it is the cheapest option for a decent computer to hook up and tune with. Tuning with only the Hand Commander is silly. If this were the best idea, shops that tune the Power FC wouldn't bother with having a datalogit and a laptop, tablet, computer, etc. "Hey, you have a Hand Commander? Sweet, that's all I need!" - said no competent tuner ever...

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by ADIDASilvias

Tuning with only the Hand Commander is silly. If this were the best idea, shops that tune the Power FC wouldn't bother with having a datalogit and a laptop, tablet, computer, etc. "Hey, you have a Hand Commander? Sweet, that's all I need!" - said no competent tuner ever...

the data-logit offer barely any advantage for maf tuning the power FC. The only thing you "get" is slightly more access, and a logging ability, which is mostly useless if you already know exactly how much timing and fuel you know will work for the engine (and if you don't just ask me ;D). Remember these are sub 500whp tunes for pump gas vehicles, using a maf sensor, and once tuned no longer have the laptop or data-logit plugged in (you only use it to tune the car once, which can be done identically with a hand-commander.)

In other words, nobody likes using the hand commander. I don't need to use it because I have the data-logit. But there is no real reason why I couldn't use the hand-commander if I had to, in a pinch, or if the data-logit broke, there would be no difference in the final tune or the way you drive afterwards.

#2 if ebay doesn't have any used PFC for your engine, you have the wrong engine for such an easy, cheap used tuning option. The chance of finding a used PFC for different engines will obviously vary. Try to plan before you buy the engine, make a list of all the parts and their availability, and anything in this category (used, ebay parts) try to buy well in advance if possible. Either that or be prepared to pay the price. RB engines are prestigious, excessively extravagant, and are only used when the owner desires the RB name tag over displacement and power output from other, lesser cost options. In other words, the minute you say RB anything, you will generally expect to pay double for parts and accessories for something like 30 to 50% less power output given a similar investment as other, more common engine swap options with 6 or 8 cylinders.

[ADIDASilvias]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

the data-logit offer barely any advantage for maf tuning the power FC. The only thing you "get" is slightly more access, and a logging ability [SNIP]

Those two reasons are exactly why I consider it a necessity. The OP mentioned having $5k to spend. If my experience is to be regarded, I think he'll find that $5k is doable, but once you start weighing the pros and cons of additional items you find that there are other parts that will increase the reliability and safety of running an engine at twice it's rated stock output. These quickly add up. I am currently sitting somewhere around $10k in the motor with an estimated $3k left before I have it buttoned up. Given that I have that many Obama funny money bucks tied up in this project I want to have the ability to see and track every parameter the ECU sees to determine engine health at any given time. The Hand Commander is useful, but logging ability is akin to gold in my book.

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

Remember these are sub 500whp tunes for pump gas vehicles, using a maf sensor, and once tuned no longer have the laptop or data-logit plugged in (you only use it to tune the car once, which can be done identically with a hand-commander.)

Even if you have a great tuner, I still think having the ability to see and track your engine parameters is paramount to the longevity of the engine. I will be utilizing The Boost Creep in Denver for my professional tuning as he has experience with Link ECUs, and I have it on good authority that he knows his shit. Regardless, I will be tracking my engine parameters and looking for areas in which improvements are possible, or areas where the engine is pushing safety thresholds in an attempt to safeguard against premature engine failure and performance deficiencies. I am not about to rely on a tune completed in a few hours or more without being able to steer the boat myself if needed. I will not let my tuner lock the tune, and I'll sign any paper stating he is not liable if I make changes and fuck things up.

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

In other words, nobody likes using the hand commander. I don't need to use it because I have the data-logit. But there is no real reason why I couldn't use the hand-commander if I had to, in a pinch, or if the data-logit broke, there would be no difference in the final tune or the way you drive afterwards.

As I stated, the Hand Commander could be used, but it is much less than ideal. Any competent tuner, such as yourself, would much prefer to have the capabilities of the DL in the mix, MAF or otherwise. If you didn't, you would not have a DL at your disposal.

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

#2 if ebay doesn't have any used PFC for your engine, you have the wrong engine for such an easy, cheap used tuning option. The chance of finding a used PFC for different engines will obviously vary. Try to plan before you buy the engine, make a list of all the parts and their availability, and anything in this category (used, ebay parts) try to buy well in advance if possible. Either that or be prepared to pay the price. RB engines are prestigious, excessively extravagant, and are only used when the owner desires the RB name tag over displacement and power output from other, lesser cost options. In other words, the minute you say RB anything, you will generally expect to pay double for parts and accessories for something like 30 to 50% less power output given a similar investment as other, more common engine swap options with 6 or 8 cylinders.

I am not about to get into the "you should put a JZ in it", or "just go LS" argument. The fact is, some of us prefer to keep a Nissan a Nissan. I cost out a 1JZ with R154 tranny, bolt-on and ancillaries, and determined that the RB25 swap would run me almost identical amounts of hard earned cash. The 2JZ with R154 was more expensive, because 2JZ yo. A 2JZ would run about what an RB26 with RB25 tranny would and I personally would choose an RB26 over a 2JZ just to keep it in the Nissan family. An LS swap just feels dirty to me, like 2 dollar hooker dirty. She'll do the job and performance may be admirable, but you still don't wanna look yourself in the mirror afterwards...

Anything non RB specific runs the same amount as other forced induction motors, and various other RB specific items can be cross referenced to other domestic Nissan motors to keep costs down. RB items that cannot be cross referenced aren't nearly as expensive now as they were 10 years ago given the increased popularity of the swaps in the states.

30-50% less power output given the investment?!!! Really? I call bullshit on that one... you're pulling numbers out of your ass.

I for one would never let the availability of a used Power FC drive my selection of a motor. That seems like a backwards way of going about it. Besides that, I generally do not buy used electronics when their function is key in keeping an expensive project from being relegated to the recycling bin. Kind of why I would never buy a used power supply for a high end computer. If it fails or is buggy it can take the entire project down in the process. You obviously feel different, which is fine, but I wouldn't let $500 be the difference between $10k of super sweetness or $10k of scrap metal. You do not know the condition of the components when buying second hand. It could have been dropped several times, or subjected to extreme static shock, or any number of other not so good situations.

[hanzbrady]

30-50% less power output given the investment?!!! Really? I call bullshit on that one... you're pulling numbers out of your ass.

Well, I mean i don't know about those exact numbers, but let's take the RB25 VS a 2JZ the 2JZ will cost roughly the same to buy (could be had much cheaper if buying stateside and converting a non turbo block to turbo, is half a liter bigger, and most of that being in stroke.

So cost X output the JZ family would win here stateside at least.

[Juan@Fontananissan]

Originally Posted by hanzbrady

Well, I mean i don't know about those exact numbers, but let's take the RB25 VS a 2JZ the 2JZ will cost roughly the same to buy (could be had much cheaper if buying stateside and converting a non turbo block to turbo, is half a liter bigger, and most of that being in stroke.

So cost X output the JZ family would win here stateside at least.

I don't think so. (I've worked with both RB's and JZ's)

[ADIDASilvias]

Originally Posted by ADIDASilvias

I am currently sitting somewhere around $10k in the motor with an estimated $3k left before I have it buttoned up. Given that I have that many Obama funny money bucks tied up in this project I want to have the ability to see and track every parameter the ECU sees to determine engine health at any given time. The Hand Commander is useful, but logging ability is akin to gold in my book.

^Yes I just quoted myself...

Let me just say this about my current costs. I am $10k in, with $2700 in the stock R34 Neo motor and R33 transmission. So for ease of calcs, let's say I have $7k in aftermarket parts. I don't plan on touching the stock internals since the Neo is solid lifters, RB26 forged rods, and VCT which I plan to keep. I may throw some Pon Cams in just to do it while the motor is out. I am doing ARP head studs and stock gasket replacement, so it is a possibility since I can keep VCT with them.

Here is the list of parts so far:

Neo water pump
RB Greddy Super Kevlar Timing Belt <- Stock is cheaper, but meh, kevlar aside, the durability of the belt teeth is really a plus in my opinion.
Timing Idler and tensioner pulleys
Greddy style intake plenum and 90mm TB <- TIG welded aluminum sheet plenum, the same as Go-Zirra sells on eBay. Amazing build quality, no cast crap.
Top mount twin scroll exhaust manifold <- Hybrid Performance out of NZ. Good Quality, Great Price. Will be modified for dual wastegates.
Dual Precision 46mm Wastegates
Synapse Synchronic Diverter Valve
Twin Scroll BorgWarner S200SX-E 7670 turbocharger <- Found a deal no one could come close to beating. I couldn't even beat it through my girlfriend's brother who works at Kenworth and could get it at cost.
ECOtrons wideband O2 CANBUS controller with Bosch ADV sensor
FiveOMotorsports 850cc Black Ops injectors <- was about to pull the trigger on the Injector Dynamics, but price got the better of me. We'll see how these work out...
Fuelab Fuel Pressure Regulator
Aeromotive Stealth 340 fuel pump
SPEC Stage 3+ clutch <- Read the good, read the bad, generally the 3+ has good reviews
Treadstone TR1235 Intercooler
ARP head studs
Full RB25det Neo gasket set
LS truck coilpacks
Taylor 409 Race Pro 10.4mm plug wires
Link G4+ GTTLink plug in ECU and extension loom
Link 4bar MAP sensor
Link IAT sensor (Bosch) with weld bung
HKS Hi-power exhaust for S14 <- nice and throaty but not too loud with the KA currently
ISR test pipe <- found out the 95 KA was a straight pipe anyway, no secondary Cat, but oh well, this one was shiny and should flow even better.
Sentra early 90s 1.6L IACV <- Same as R33 RB25 minus the T, which is useless since I am not running coolant through the throttle body
Pathfinder early 90s 3.0L TPS <- same as Q45 as far as I can tell
ISR RB25 into S14 mount kit <- Seems good so far, welds are the best I've seen from ISR, good thickness, great price compared to others and doesn't require the R33 crossmember.

Things left to buy:

Quest alternator and associated hardware for install
Driveshaft <- need to measure after engine/tranny are in to make sure a DS shaft will fit, or a custom shaft will be built.
WS engine harness <- I could make my own, but they have a great quality product even at the somewhat high price.
Radiator and fan set-up <- Looking for a radiator with integrated oil/transmission fluid cooler to knock 2 birds out.
Teflon Fuel lines <- setting it up to possibly run E85 etc when Green Initiative forces everything towards ethanol.
Radiator and coolant lines <- Loving the Viper lines from the UK currently, just need to figure out what I need.
Vacuum Tubing
Intercooler Piping
Exhaust pieces for custom down pipe
NGK copper spark plugs
Coolant Temp Sensor
Thermostat
Exhaust Temp Sensor
Fuel Pressure Sensor
Other odds and ends I know will come up that I won't have thought about until the engine is in the chassis.
Possibly S15 Helical differential. Might run the open diff until I determine 1 skid mark needs to be 2.
Possibly new oil pump depending on condition of stock clearances and whether I got lucky with the upgraded crank without the crank collar requirement.


There you have it. If you cannot tell from the above, the list is extensive.

TL/DR - Lots of shit purchased, some shit left, $10k spent so far

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by ADIDASilvias

Those two reasons are exactly why I consider it a necessity. The OP mentioned having $5k to spend. If my experience is to be regarded, I think he'll find that $5k is doable, but once you start weighing the pros and cons of additional items you find that there are other parts that will increase the reliability and safety of running an engine at twice it's rated stock output.

don't care about 1 person. I speak in generalities. some have 5k some have 500. some have $5.

Even if you have a great tuner, I still think having the ability to see and track your engine parameters is paramount to the longevity of the engine.

just so we are on the same page. If I buy a stock sr20 and I wanted to push it to 350rwhp, I wouldn't bother with a data-logit. Stick a $350 used PFC and go, done deal. Thats been my point from the beginning- if the application is MAF sensor based, sub 500rwhp, you don't need to see the logs to tune the engine unless you think there is something wrong with it, and even then the commander has output data you can refer to. Also, Once an engine is tuned, you aren't going to carry around the laptop everytime you drive the car, most will not be doing that. KISS means just drive, bare minimum, simple setup, stuff a $100 fuel pump in the tank and watch your $150 wideband if you are worried etc.. My posts are directed to those wanting to save $$$, by giving up features. I am not pushing anything, Of course I prefer the most sophistocated electronics and tuning ecu available, just like I favor direct injection and rear mount oil-less cartridges. I am stating simple ideas for $$ saving factors which happen to follow KISS.

Regardless, I will be tracking my engine parameters and looking for areas in which improvements are possible, or areas where the engine is pushing safety thresholds in an attempt to safeguard against premature engine failure and performance deficiencies. I am not about to rely on a tune completed in a few hours or more without being able to steer the boat myself if needed. I will not let my tuner lock the tune, and I'll sign any paper stating he is not liable if I make changes and fuck things up.

years of tuning and you will come to understand the difference between race cars, competition, and street/daily drivers. A daily driver doesn't "push" any envelopes, because tomorrows pump fuel, or hills, or climate, can screw you over. A "factory" tune is what you want. Not actually factory, I used quotes because I mean only that you want to be able to drive the car like a factory car in those situations ( get in, turn the key and go, no worries regardless of what the gas is like today ). If you start pushing timing and leaning out the engine (what else can you really do anyways?) What do you think will eventually happen?

As I stated, the Hand Commander could be used, but it is much less than ideal. Any competent tuner, such as yourself, would much prefer to have the capabilities of the DL in the mix, MAF or otherwise. If you didn't, you would not have a DL at your disposal.

I agree, but I am also perfectly fine using the commander. I could take an ECU, program it completely with the vehicle off, for the most part, and have the car driving fine an hour later, done tuning. Still referring to sub 500rwhp daily driver maf engines, using a PFC. Thats the golden ticket for KISS. You can't do better than that, there is no better option for saving $$ and having a reliable daily driver in those situations.

I am not about to get into the "you should put a JZ in it", or "just go LS" argument. The fact is, some of us prefer to keep a Nissan a Nissan.

your personal taste. Pay extra for it, sometimes.

I cost out a 1JZ with R154 tranny, bolt-on and ancillaries, and determined that the RB25 swap would run me almost identical amounts of hard earned cash.

1JZ I avoid. Not worth the effort, imo, unless: you get a couple of them dirt cheap somehow.

The 2JZ with R154 was more expensive, because 2JZ yo. A 2JZ would run about what an RB26 with RB25 tranny would and I personally would choose an RB26 over a 2JZ just to keep it in the Nissan family. An LS swap just feels dirty to me, like 2 dollar hooker dirty. She'll do the job and performance may be admirable, but you still don't wanna look yourself in the mirror afterwards...

more personal taste. Its fine, I love all engines, I weight their pros and cons as you will see and its as simple as that. For me, personal taste = max power, max reliability, for minimum $$. Don't care what you call the engine, no one's going to see it anyways under my hood, or hear it for that matter.

Anything non RB specific runs the same amount as other forced induction motors, and various other RB specific items can be cross referenced to other domestic Nissan motors to keep costs down. RB items that cannot be cross referenced aren't nearly as expensive now as they were 10 years ago given the increased popularity of the swaps in the states.

When I was "in the business" RB26 was $6500~ and 2jz-gte we get for $1200-$1800 with auto trans. I would never both with a manual transmission behind a 2jz-gte- too much $$ is the main reason. I prefer: cheap and reliable. Automatics can go 150k to 250k without clutch swaps, and it will be faster on both the street and track. My kind of daily driver.

30-50% less power output given the investment?!!! Really? I call bullshit on that one... you're pulling numbers out of your ass.

It is simple math, displacement vs displacement will show that what I say is true. RB25 engine will run you $2500~ and brings 2.5L to the table. LSx engine will run you $1000~ and brings over double that. So yeah, 50% more power is available at the same boost pressure (or the same power with half the boost pressure, if you want). Either way, displacement always wins, unless the engine has some fatal flaw which puts a cap on it's output, and then you have to get into building engines and filling them and all sorts of crap. I Avoid that route for daily drivers. If the engine in question can't handle the power, I don't build it, I just use the right engine instead. It helps to be able to buy a couple of them, as spares. I would never run a factory block to some inane power level without a spare factory block sitting all cleaned up and ready to drop in on the side. This is where your true reliability comes from, swap an $1000 engine in a day after you drive it for 4-8 years at 550rwhp sounds good to me, on to the next one.

I for one would never let the availability of a used Power FC drive my selection of a motor. That seems like a backwards way of going about it. Besides that, I generally do not buy used electronics when their function is key in keeping an expensive project from being relegated to the recycling bin. Kind of why I would never buy a used power supply for a high end computer. If it fails or is buggy it can take the entire project down in the process. You obviously feel different, which is fine, but I wouldn't let $500 be the difference between $10k of super sweetness or $10k of scrap metal. You do not know the condition of the components when buying second hand. It could have been dropped several times, or subjected to extreme static shock, or any number of other not so good situations.

I wouldn't use a cheap piece of $#!T used ECU on a $10,000 engine. My advice has been over and over that this is a money saving goal, and keeping it simple, mixed together. If you drop more than $2k on an engine, in general, you are already on the "not so money saving" train. It depends on the application. For many people, 500rwhp is plenty in a 2800lb car. I can do that with a completely stock truck 5.3L V8 for half the cost of an RB25 or 2JZ, using the factory computer (HPtuner) which contains as many or more of the same/similar options that any fancy stand-alone has.