Crankcase ventilation directly to atmosphere?

[CarRamrod]

Originally Posted by hobbs

I was going to argue with you but after seeing your location I realize it's nothing more than a waste of time.

This cracked me up! LMAO!

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by CarRamrod

Maybe the problem is that you don't understand how a proper catch can setup works. Allow me to explain, generally speaking and this is just an example of one style catch can, you have a dirty side and a clean side. The clean side is generally on the top of the catch can. A foam or mesh separates the clean and dirty sides of the can. The "crap" is pulled to the dirty side and vacuum is pulled from the clean side. The clean side is routed from the can to the intake. So as air is drawn up from the dirty side, it passes through the mesh and or foam which catches the majority of the "crap" and it falls to the bottom of the can where it is stored until you drain it out. The air that has now passed to the clean side may still be contaminated by some unwanted contaminates and is sucked up into the intake where the motor burns it up in the combustion cycle and it's pushed out of the exhaust.

1. there is a non-filtered tube connecting the valvecover directly to the intake manifold so any vapours in the valvecover may enter the engine at any time, which ruins your "clean and dirty" theory.
2. How is there crap coming out of your engine? Is it liquid crap? or solid crap?
3. Why doesn't the factory feel the need to put a can on the engine to catch "crap that you drain out later"? If by crap you mean oil, then just say oil. Which by definition should be coming out of your valvecover clean. Which is why it returns to the oil pan on a factory setup, and does not require "to be drained later".

A PCV system without this can will route everything directly to the intake and contaminate your intake and valves much faster with "crap".

I think you need to do more research. There is a hose connecting the valvecover to the intake manifold on nearly every factory engine PCV system from every engine manufacturer, that has no catch can, and no filter.

I hope that makes things more clear for you.

It catches the oils and vapors before it gets into the intake system. No one said this way is the beys or most efficient way. Just another way to skin this cat.

there you go again, claiming that you can catch vapour in a can.

[hobbs]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

there you go again, claiming that you can catch vapour in a can.

You have your 'you's mixed up.

[CarRamrod]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

1. there is a non-filtered tube connecting the valvecover directly to the intake manifold so any vapours in the valvecover may enter the engine at any time, which ruins your "clean and dirty" theory.
2. How is there crap coming out of your engine? Is it liquid crap? or solid crap?
3. Why doesn't the factory feel the need to put a can on the engine to catch "crap that you drain out later"? If by crap you mean oil, then just say oil. Which by definition should be coming out of your valvecover clean. Which is why it returns to the oil pan on a factory setup, and does not require "to be drained later".





I think you need to do more research. There is a hose connecting the valvecover to the intake manifold on nearly every factory engine PCV system from every engine manufacturer, that has no catch can, and no filter.

I hope that makes things more clear for you.





there you go again, claiming that you can catch vapour in a can.

Let's get scientific then and really dig into how a catch can works. Here we go, try to stay with me.

Unfiltered air from the crankcase frequently contains carbon, oil, moisture and other harmful substances, and therefore requires filtration. The air passes through a tube-shaped mesh filter, which creates a coalescence effect (science). Here bigger particles are adsorbed on the filter and the water and oil will condense into larger droplets, which can then fall down to the bottom of the can. Basically, the air is slowed down, which makes the particles condense on a mesh or foam like pad, allowing the water droplets to travel to the bottom of the drainage system and await discharge. In the filtration stage more than 95% of the water droplets, oil and large particles are removed. The rest are burnt off by the engine.

Without a catch can, that 95% of contaminates, "crap" and "shit" will be routed directly to your intake. Idk about you but I like my engine. This is an aftermarket UPGRADE to an already functioning factory PCV system.

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by CarRamrod

Without a catch can, that 95% of contaminates, "crap" and "shit" will be routed directly to your intake. Idk about you but I like my engine. This is an aftermarket UPGRADE to an already functioning factory PCV system.

Again, there is a NON filtered tube, connecting the intake manifold directly to the valve cover on all engines. Completely bypassing the catch can. Having a can on the other side of the engine does not help this fact.

How are you claiming it does?

[Kingtal0n]

Unfiltered air from the crankcase frequently contains carbon, oil, moisture and other harmful substances, and therefore requires filtration.

LOL this really makes me laugh.
1. Carbon chains IS oil. Just say oil. You can say Alkanes if you want. Be specific.
2. Oil, IS carbon chains. Way to list the same thing twice. Why dont we just say Alkanes?
3. Moisture... Is water molecules, as a vapour/GAS when oil is over 212*F at sea level. Which again, will not get caught in a catch can. And furthermore, can not be filtered out by any catch can produced by any manufacturer. Water is a non issue for a running engine once the engine hits operating temperature. Have you ever drained your catch can and found water? LOL!

allowing the water droplets to travel to the bottom of the drainage system and await discharge

Apparently!

So far the only two things you mentioned coming out of the valvecover are: oil and water. Still dont see "crap".

[hobbs]

Still waiting for you to prove to where I said vapor is caught in the OEM catch can....

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by hobbs

Still waiting for you to prove to where I said vapor is caught in the OEM catch can....

Oh sorry I thought you found it

Originally Posted by hobbs

You're trying to get into the nitty gritty about the definition of the word catch. Use whatever word you want, the function remains the same, removing oil from vapors that come from the crank case. Catch, retain, remove.

pretty sure you just said, catch, retain, remove, oil vapour.

[lethanh93]

It seems catch cans absorb particulates from combustion on a mesh and let's it condense.
Its an extra preliminary step before stock systems to remove more random particles that's not gasoline.
Dunno why that's so hard to get.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[CarRamrod]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

Again, there is a NON filtered tube, connecting the intake manifold directly to the valve cover on all engines. Completely bypassing the catch can. Having a can on the other side of the engine does not help this fact.

How are you claiming it does?

What if I told you that you can run more than one dirty and clean port on a single catch can? What if I told you that you can run more than one catch can on a motor?

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

LOL this really makes me laugh.
1. Carbon chains IS oil. Just say oil. You can say Alkanes if you want. Be specific.
2. Oil, IS carbon chains. Way to list the same thing twice. Why dont we just say Alkanes?
3. Moisture... Is water molecules, as a vapour/GAS when oil is over 212*F at sea level. Which again, will not get caught in a catch can. And furthermore, can not be filtered out by any catch can produced by any manufacturer. Water is a non issue for a running engine once the engine hits operating temperature.

So far the only two things you mentioned coming out of the valvecover are: oil and water. Still dont see "crap".

Are we arguing about molecular structures or what they are commonly referred to? Most here aren't scientists and don't care to be. Most here just don't want oil vapors, carbon and or moisture in their intake system. I say MOST. Obviously you seem to rather enjoy all that unwanted "crap" in your intake lol.

I told you how water and oil vapors get trapped in the can in the last post where I explained how a catch can works "scientifically".

How do you think water gets separated from air coming from air compressors? Same principal is applied to this.

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by lethanh93

It seems catch cans absorb particulates from combustion on a mesh and let's it condense.
Its an extra preliminary step before stock systems to remove more random particles that's not gasoline.
Dunno why that's so hard to get.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

Well thanks for trying at least. Consider this, then,

#1 there is a hose connecting the valvecover directly to the intake manifold. Regardless of whether you have a catch can or not, the engine has direct access to the valvecover, and all of it's "particulate, crap, debris, oil, carbon, water, etc..."


#2 anything particulate based in the engine oil is filtered out by the oil filter (that's its job). Anything else found particulate based in engine oil, by definition, could not "condense" since it is a solid and stays that way.

Furthermore, anything particulate based in the engine oil, is fully distributed to ALL of the engine oil evenly. Particulate does not concentrate in one specific place, right next to the valvecover exit point leading to the catch can, that would be against the laws of physics.

[CarRamrod]

I'm not here to argue what "crap" is when I've explained what I mean when I say "crap in multiple posts. Go back and read.

I refer to it as crap because it's unwanted. No one wants crap hence the reason we are trying to contain it and dispose of it.

[hobbs]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

Oh sorry I thought you found it



pretty sure you just said, catch, retain, remove, oil vapour.

Oil FROM crank case vapors, I'll give you an A for effort though.

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by CarRamrod

What if I told you that you can run more than one dirty and clean port on a single catch can? What if I told you that you can run more than one catch can on a motor?





Are we arguing about molecular structures or what they are commonly referred to? Most here aren't scientists and don't care to be. Most here just don't want oil vapors, carbon and or moisture in their intake system. I say MOST. Obviously you seem to rather enjoy all that unwanted "crap" in your intake lol.

I told you how water and oil vapors get trapped in the can in the last post where I explained how a catch can works "scientifically".

How do you think water gets separated from air coming from air compressors? Same principal is applied to this.

you keep missing the fact there is a non-filtered tube connecting the intake manifold to the valvecover. Yeah you can filter it; but nobody ever does. I bet you dont either. Picture of your engine with a filter on that specific hose please.

Yeah didnt think so.


Furthermore, water can not be found in engine oil once the engine oil is operating temperature. It will have boiled off.


further FURTHERmore, water is not harmful to the combustion process. In fact, water entering the engine to be burnt, will tend to CLEAN the engine. I typically run a gallon of distilled water through my engine per week.

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by hobbs

Oil FROM crank case vapors, I'll give you an A for effort though.

It separates the oil FROM the crank case vapor... VERY GOOD... now WHY?

WHY Does it separate the oil from the vapour?

Answer:
Because there is a tube connecting the inlet of the turbocharger to the valvecover, and we do not want a significant amount of liquid oil entering the compressor side of the turbocharger.


NOT answers:to Filter the oil, for filtering out "crap", filtering out "debris"

these are imaginary reasons for people who claim there is "crap" coming out of their engine yet have no clue what "crap is" nor data to back that up.

[CarRamrod]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

Well thanks for trying at least. Consider this, then,

#1 there is a hose connecting the valvecover directly to the intake manifold. Regardless of whether you have a catch can or not, the engine has direct access to the valvecover, and all of it's "particulate, crap, debris, oil, carbon, water, etc..."

this is where you rout the line from the valvecover to a catch can and then to the intake

#2 anything particulate based in the engine oil is filtered out by the oil filter (that's its job). Anything else found particulate based in engine oil, by definition, could not "condense" since it is a solid and stays that way.

we aren't filtering the oil, we are filtering oil vapors, water vapors and other harmful contaminates so they don't get passed into our intake system

Furthermore, anything particulate based in the engine oil, is fully distributed to ALL of the engine oil evenly. Particulate does not concentrate in one specific place, right next to the valvecover exit point leading to the catch can, that would be against the laws of physics.

we aren't filtering particles, we are filtering the air from inside the crank case

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by CarRamrod

we aren't filtering particles, we are filtering the air from inside the crank case

Again with the air. Air is gas. Gas does not get filtered by a catch can. Gas will not "condense and settle out".

To filter "air" you would need an "air filter".

[hobbs]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

It separates the oil FROM the crank case vapor... VERY GOOD... now WHY?

WHY Does it separate the oil from the vapour?

Answer:
Because there is a tube connecting the inlet of the turbocharger to the valvecover, and we do not want a significant amount of liquid oil entering the compressor side of the turbocharger.


NOT answers:to Filter the oil, for filtering out "crap", filtering out "debris"

these are imaginary reasons for people who claim there is "crap" coming out of their engine yet have no clue what "crap is" nor data to back that up.

Again, when did I ever say crap? You're pulling this "crap" from thin air! (ha get it, crap in air, like in your intake on your 10k 'seasoned' sr)

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by hobbs

Again, when did I ever say crap? You're pulling this "crap" from thin air! (ha get it, crap in air, like in your intake on your 10k 'seasoned' sr)

I was referring the whole thread in general, not to you.

Engine has 13,000 now. I keep it clean, dont you worry. Yeah theres a catch can on it, a greddy can. I never said it was a bad idea. Only un-necessary, and detrimental to the overall pressure drop experienced at the turbocharger inlet, due to the additional volume of plumbing. It was important, on a clean, highly modified engine, for keeping that much more liquid oil away from my compressor. Repeat: for keeping liquid oil away from the compressor.


not for filtering "crap". lol...
And I would not have bothered if I was using an S14 cover. Its just the S13 covers have a tendancy to dribble a bit of liquid oil. Which is why there is the factory hose returning oil to the pan.

[CarRamrod]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

you keep missing the fact there is a non-filtered tube connecting the intake manifold to the valvecover. Yeah you can filter it; but nobody ever does. I bet you dont either. Picture of your engine with a filter on that specific hose please.

Yeah didnt think so.


Furthermore, water can not be found in engine oil once the engine oil is operating temperature. It will have boiled off.


further FURTHERmore, water is not harmful to the combustion process. In fact, water entering the engine to be burnt, will tend to CLEAN the engine. I typically run a gallon of distilled water through my engine per week.

You keep missing the fact that I'm telling everyone to run the tube that comes from the valve cover to a catch can and then to the intake. Read son!

I run LSx motors but please explain to everyone why those same principals of filtering the air coming from the crank case to the intake don't interchange between Nissan motors and LSx motors. I'd be very interested to read that logic.

Condensation is found in motors due to the difference in temperature from the inside of the motor to the outside air temp. After the motor is run for a while it turns into vapor and guess what, we are catching that in the catch can!

If you're reading this, DO NOT run water through your intake. Water does not compress and you can hydro lock your engine and cause internal damage. Common sense tells you this.

If water doesn't hurt the combustion process then why do engines produce less power when it's humid outside? BECAUSE YOU CANT BURN WATER!!!!

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

It separates the oil FROM the crank case vapor... VERY GOOD... now WHY?

WHY Does it separate the oil from the vapour?

Answer:
Because there is a tube connecting the inlet of the turbocharger to the valvecover, and we do not want a significant amount of liquid oil entering the compressor side of the turbocharger.


NOT answers:to Filter the oil, for filtering out "crap", filtering out "debris"

these are imaginary reasons for people who claim there is "crap" coming out of their engine yet have no clue what "crap is" nor data to back that up.

Again, I've already told you but I'll say it again. "Crap" - water vapor, oil vapor, harmful contaminates that are a byproduct of burning fossil fuels.

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

Again with the air. Air is gas. Gas does not get filtered by a catch can. Gas will not "condense and settle out".

To filter "air" you would need an "air filter".

The mesh and or foam inside the catch can IS an air filter. We are filtering the air!!! Hahahaha.


You're clearly losing this discussion.

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by CarRamrod

If you're reading this, DO NOT run water through your intake. Water does not compress and you can hydro lock your engine and cause internal damage. Common sense tells you this.

Right so, water injection is a myth. I think you need to do more research. If you've never heard of water injection... I just dont know how else to help you.


http://www.xtremediesel.com/Snow-Per...Fa47OgodPwIAXw


http://www.fcpeuro.com/products/aem-...FUuXOgodMh8Apw

Oh NOES! Nobody use those water injection system! They R bad!

I think at this point its pretty obvious you lack experience with high performance engines and should not be giving advice.

[CarRamrod]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

Right so, water injection is a myth. I think you need to do more research. If you've never heard of water injection... I just dont know how else to help you.

You're making it sound like you're dumping water in your intake. Lol

I had a water meth injection on a procharged LS1. Alkycontrol built my kit. I know a lot about it. Fact is that water/meth injection works but it's a bandaid to a problem of not enough octane in the fuel. Common knowledge.

I'm not here to talk about water/meth injection, I'm here to talk about catch cans.

[CarRamrod]

Don't turn this into an argument about water injection lol.

Catch cans are the topic here, properly ran PCV systems are the topic here. Not why you should run water through your engine.

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by CarRamrod

Don't turn this into an argument about water injection lol.

Catch cans are the topic here, properly ran PCV systems are the topic here. Not why you should run water through your engine.

You just called a catch can an air filter. I am pretty sure that you have no data to back this claim up, and that you pulled it out of thin air. Why don't you google "cut open catch can". A mesh of metal stuffed into a can is not an air filter.

furthermore PCV, again, has no catch can in it. that is something you are adding to it. PCV has nothing to do with catch cans. You are all over the place with the terminology, and you lack fundamental knowledge of chemistry.

[CarRamrod]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

You just called a catch can an air filter. I am pretty sure that you have no data to back this claim up, and that you pulled it out of thin air. Why don't you google "cut open catch can". A mesh of metal stuffed into a can is not an air filter.

furthermore PCV, again, has no catch can in it. that is something you are adding to it. PCV has nothing to do with catch cans. You are all over the place with the terminology, and you lack fundamental knowledge of chemistry.

It is essentially an air filter since we are using it to filter air. I've sated numerous times what is inside a proper catch can so idk why you're trying to tell me. Lol

Just because you add a catch can to a PCV system doesn't turn it into something other than a PCV system. It's still a PCV system but it now has a filter integrated into the system.

I'm sorry you ran into someone who knows what they are talking about. Haha. It's just not your day today. I've explained how it works, why it works and why you should use one.

At this point you're trying to dissect my posts and twist words around. Not gonna work man. Catch cans are used and have been used on high performance cars for decades. Why? Because they work. Nothing you can say or do to refute that.

This discussion is over. People, you have the facts. You decide if a catch can is right for your setup.

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by CarRamrod

It is essentially an air filter since we are using it to filter air. I've sated numerous times what is inside a proper catch can so idk why you're trying to tell me. Lol

So those ebay air filters, that people use to filter air... those are good air filters? Because people use them to filter air?

People sometimes use a sock to filter air. So that is an air filter? Just because I use it?

You consistently make the erroneous claims of someone without any scientific background. What you did there, is called non-scientific coorelation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correla...mply_causation

Just because you add a catch can to a PCV system doesn't turn it into something other than a PCV system. It's still a PCV system but it now has a filter integrated into the system.

1. adding length to the PCV system makes it less effective. If you add 10000 feet of hose between the intake and the valvecover, do you think you will get a strong vacuum signal at the other end? Adding unnecessary length to the PCV system is working AGAINST it's design. You are HURTING the PCV system by integrating ANYTHING, be it .1" or 99999" of hose.
2. You, and everyone else, has ZERO data about "air filter" capabilities of any/all catch cans available. Most do not contain ANYTHING. The ones that do contain a large wirey mesh, incapable of filtering air particulate.

3. The materials that compose common metal-mesh inserts of catch cans provide a reaction surface (catalyst) for potentially hazardous side reactions for the truly (un-named as of yet) harmful partially de-hydrogenated/oxidized carbon compounds (the ones I was hoping you would mention but failed to) Making the catch can a potentially harmful addition to the PCV system, besides the obvious draw back of the additional length (#1).

I'm sorry you ran into someone who knows what they are talking about. Haha. It's just not your day today. I've explained how it works, why it works and why you should use one.

Yeah you really know what you are talking about. Still waiting for pictures of your catch can between the valvecover and intake manifold.

[jamg]

So guys... My intake Mani has no more ports for the PVC on the cover.... What should I do? It currently vents to air.

[Kingtal0n]

Originally Posted by jamg

So guys... My intake Mani has no more ports for the PVC on the cover.... What should I do? It currently vents to air.

Follow the FSM and route all lines like the FSM shows you.

[Kingtal0n]

checklist:
1. intake manifold routed to factory PCV valve
2. S13 cover returns liquid oil to pan
3. Compressor inlet uses proper angle fitting to promote PCV
4. S13 cover receives PCV signal during boost from compressor inlet
5. Catch can receives any liquid oil that does not return to pan (just in case any liquid oil makes it- but none ever does)
6. Catch can never "fills up" with oil because that would indicate an issue with crankcase pressure
7. Crank case is fully sealed, maintains a vacuum while engine is running

bonus points:
1. bypass is on the hot-side, as close to the compressor as possible.
2. Stock clutch fan / shroud for reliability
3. proper heat management to prevent engine bay fires
4. bottom mount configuration for style

[jr_ss]

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

Most do not contain ANYTHING. The ones that do contain a large wirey mesh, incapable of filtering air particulate.

What is the purpose of that "wirey mesh" stuff? It provides surface area for the oily air vapor to collect on. In other words this would be "filtering" said air. Now if it doesn't have a "wirey mesh" inside it, then it is nothing more than a vacuum chamber, which draws oily air through it, collecting some, but not nearly as effective as one with "wirey mesh".

Kingalton, I think you read too far into things and miss the point sometimes. You don't know everything and at times you come off as an arrogant fool and others you have valid points that aren't in outer space. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

A catch can is nothing more than a means to remove the oil vapor from inside the engine. As someone stated, there are contaminants in said vapor that some prefer not to have redirected back to the sump. Oil changes are needed because there is "crap" in it, among other reasons, as you know.

A valve cover, such as the S14 with internal baffling collects these contaminants and over time they get gummed up with the "crap" that was filtered out. Next time you pull your VC off, remove the baffling and tell us what you find.