Energy suspension?

[soundboy]

Looking at going with a stock diff and subframe into a s13.
However I'm looking at a master kit for a s13 to replace almost everything suspension.
Looking at just replacing the bushings with the poly inserts. Stock arms and so on until I need adjustment where needed.

But I never had any experience with these bushings past a few days. Does it make noise?
How does it wear?

Looking at going with the subframe inserts also. The two piece

[CrimsonRockett]

The bushings require maintenance every few thousand miles. They have to be continuously greased. Otherwise, they will bind and you will eventually snap an arm.

[az_240]

Don't bother with any polyurethane that require movement within the bushing. They will make noise, bind and ride quality won't be so good. Stick with spherical or OEM/Nismo.

The polyurethane subframe or diff bushings are about the only ones that are okay to use.

[Sleepy_Steve]

Sub-frame inserts are a good idea to hold you over if the bushings are still in decent shape and not already torn. If torn, they'll need replacing.

Polly bushings will squeak a bit. They squeak less when greased. It's a good idea to have them fitted with grease fittings (there's a DIY about this some place) so that you don't have to rip it all apart to service them and re-lube them.

They're really only best on the inboard RLCA's and sway bar bushings / end links. And the subframe / steering rack that don't need to allow movement. Every other bushing on the car moves in more than one axis of rotation, and so you'll have some friction related to trying to compress the polly making it basically bind up when moving, even when greased.

[Mikester]

I have the full RS*R (Same as Energy) urethane master bushing kit & subframe bushings... Ride is close to stock, just a little bit stiffer and more precise. And these guys are correct- the bushings all need to be re-greased every so often.

I have never heard of them binding and snapping arms. I would think the bushing(s) would let go before a metal arm... Key word there is 'think'- I can see it going both ways depending on how abusive the driver is.

But either they will get really squeaky/creaky if you don't keep them lubed... and things that squeak and creak definitely snap, shred or otherwise wear out prematurely if not attended to.

Also, take into consideration- Is this your daily? If so, urethane may not be the best option as it will only take driving thru the rain a few times before the bushings need to be re-lubed. If you want track precision, you could go all spherical- or if you want comfort with fun-factor, you could just do urethane subframe bushings and OEM everywhere else.

For the record, my 240 is a weekend warrior/drive to work/take on road-trip every so often kind of ride. If it were a full-duty daily driver, I'd have gone with rubber for the LCA's. Urethane subframe bushings are money- Inserts are great for short-term, but not really an 'upgrade' so much as a Band-Aid to mend shot-ass bushings.

Hope this helps.

Mike

[Croustibat]

Originally Posted by az_240

Don't bother with any polyurethane that require movement within the bushing. They will make noise, bind and ride quality won't be so good. Stick with spherical or OEM/Nismo.

The polyurethane subframe or diff bushings are about the only ones that are okay to use.

From experience, that, exactly.

Although i would not even bother with the subframe inserts, as they are of no use if the bushings are already shot.

You need adjustable arms the second you lower your car more than 1" to get a suspension that does not toe steer or bump steer.

[soundboy]

Damn. I know that they make noise but no idea .its just rain that causes it.

The car is a daily , the rear bushings are pretty good still but they now started to develop cracks and the bushings inside the rear spindles are shot.

Right now the only replacement bushings I can get is made in Thailand called RBI.
I do suspension and alignment for a living and they seem to work fine.

[Mikester]

It's not JUST rain that causes it... Rain just helps accelerate washing the grease out of the bushings.

[Croustibat]

Originally Posted by soundboy

Damn. I know that they make noise but no idea .its just rain that causes it.

The car is a daily , the rear bushings are pretty good still but they now started to develop cracks and the bushings inside the rear spindles are shot.

Right now the only replacement bushings I can get is made in Thailand called RBI.
I do suspension and alignment for a living and they seem to work fine.

Your car can align well without adjustable traction arms and bump steer correction steering rack rod ends, but the rear toe will change too much during usable travel, and the front will steer in the same way. If you do alignment for a living, measure the height of the spindle when the car is on the ground, then put the car in the air, disconnect rear ARB, remove the strut/coilover, use this (sorry, don't know the english name):

to put the suspension to the level you measured before, and check how much your toe change on suspension travel. Adjustable traction rod (coupled with adjustable RUCA to prevent binds) lets you reset this. bump steer rod ends do the same at the front.

As far as the rear knuckle bushing go, some companies make ball joint inserts to put there. Not that cheap (around 300$ total for both sides), and you really need to check your knuckes before ( diameter of holes on cast iron knuckles is a bit random so they may no fit or be loose ), but well worth it.

Might be a bit overkill though, so if you need to change these bushes, you may as well put OEM rubber instead. but do NOT put PU there. The only place you can put PU bushes, as far as suspension arms on an S13 are concerned is the RLCA; these have only 1 degree of work. Every other joint has at least 2, thus the usual PU bushes should not be used. Whiteline bushes are made so they have a bit of compliance when needed, with holes drilled at the right place, but they are expensive (for a reason: they work)

[soundboy]

Last alignment I did with the bushings I got - 1.4 on the camber.
Everything else was on par.

[Croustibat]

That's great, except i am not talking about static suspension. Your suspension is supposed to move, the settings used when aligning a car are all about getting the tyre in the correct position when the car is actually moving. If your toe is closing 5mm on each side per 1cm of suspension travel, you can set whichever static toe you want, it will be all over the place. You don't know this, yet you are doing alignments for a living ?

[soundboy]

I understand what your saying.

[CrimsonRockett]

Originally Posted by Mikester

I have never heard of them binding and snapping arms. I would think the bushing(s) would let go before a metal arm...

Originally Posted by ManoNegra

ES bushing binding failure on a friend's car

I've seen this on several different occasions.

ES for subframe inserts, swaybar bushings, steering rack, all good upgrades.

Definitely not something you want on your spindles/control arms.

[Mikester]

I see an awful lot of rust in there... LOL....

but again, like I stated above, the key word is 'think' & I can totally see it going both ways depending on the level of abuse & whether or not the owner does due diligence.

Be that as it may- that pic is a definite eye-opener as to why rubber/spherical may be best for those who don't want the hassle of additional regular maintenance.

I personally like urethane everywhere, but agree 100% that it's probably not best for those whose track whores are also their daily drivers.

Mike

[az_240]

Bolt one of those poly bushed arms to the subframe. Try moving the arm up and down as if the suspension were traveling. Not so easy is it? Now try it with a OEM bushed arm.... it's like an effortless spring compared to the poly bushed arm. Multiply those forces when everything is all hooked up and you'll realize the poly bushed arms/suspension are damn near impossible to move.

Also a note for those using OEM/rubber suspension bushings. Be sure to tighten the suspension arms when they are under load (use a jack to raise each corner until the car barely starts to life off the stand to do this). If not the rubber bushings will twist apart. I see this happen all the time and kids just think it's the "shitty" rubber bushings.