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S Chassis Technical discussion related to the S Chassis such as the S12, S13, S14, and S15.


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Old 02-24-2017, 02:58 PM   #1
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Why won't my car sit even!?!?!

Updated 6/2022. Removing my update response below so that this OP houses current info. All info is pertaining to the front wheels only.

It's an S13. Summer of 2016 I decided to put S14 FLCA's (with S13 ball joints) and GK tech's RCA brackets on. This was 2016 so these were the first edition of these RCA's, probably not relevant but whatever.

My car had the same coilovers on it before this install, and the car sat level and even. Ride height was a moderate drop on 15's. Maybe 3" down from stock.

So I installed the S14 LCA's and GKtech RCA kit, dropped the car back on the ground, and instantly saw everything was fucked. The passenger side was basically tucking, and had like 2 degrees more negative camber than the drivers side. Beforehand, my coils were adjusted to the same exact height and the car sat level, as any car should. After noticing, I had to adjust the passenger side up about 1.5 more inches (measured between locking collars) to have it sit level. I will also mention that it seemed like adjusting ride height was not nearly as effective on the passenger side, as I had to adjust it up so much just to get any type of height raise. As it sits now (2022), the passenger side has about 1.5-2" between height adjustment collar and preload collar. Driver's side is nearly touching (i.e. max low). Passenger side still sits marginally lower when the car is on the ground, and the car is not slammed by any means. I have 15mm of spacer on the driver side to make the track width appear even side to side. Passenger side still looks like it has a hair more track even after this.

Since then I have removed the GK Tech kit and S14 arms. Current setup is professionally extended 20mm S13 arms and DangDrifters knuckles. Changing of the LCA and removal of the GK Tech kit in exchange for new knuckles and LCA's did not change anything, and those were the only parts changed the day this issue appeared.

So last time I took the car to get aligned, toe, camber, and caster are somewhat acceptable. I drive the car like this at events regularly and it always drives well. Car is used only for drifting. Car drives straight. Drifts through the course fine. I just don't know why things go so weird after doing something as simple as LCA's and the GKtech kit (which are now both replaced).

I am very lost still and even though I still use and love this chassis heavily (I am probably a top 15 driver at my local drift events that regularly hold 70+ drivers, if that says anything about the car's effectiveness), the fact that this condition exists constantly eats away at the back of my mind.

My only guesses (grasping at straws here):
-Bent coilover (maybe let the jack down hard when the car was in the air? Don't remember this happening or if it would have this big an effect)
-Shifted front subframe? (Not gonna lie I've pulled apart S13's dozens of times but never pulled a front subframe. Is there any room for shifting in the subframe's mounting holes?
-The car was never crashed before this, so I can't imagine a shifted strut tower or something is in order. I feel I'd have to fuck up immensely for this to happen by working on the car/jacking it up/down.

I'll straight Paypal someone $50 if their suggestion ends up fixing this.

Last edited by Thursday7; 07-07-2022 at 07:54 AM..
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Old 02-24-2017, 04:42 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thursday7 View Post
Upon pressing new bushings into the LCA's I bent one arm a bit. They were not boxed, and the one went from a |_| shape to a /_\ shape, if that makes any sense. Would this be my issue? Only other thing I could think of is I potentially didn't thread the shanks of the LCA kit in completely even, although I'm fairly certain I did.
That is where I'd start... If that LCA is as you say it can definitely cause issues and myself, I'd be swapping out that out. Then I'd go back over the kit and make sure its installed 100% correctly.
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Old 02-25-2017, 02:45 AM   #3
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take both LCA's off and put them side by side on a flat surface.
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Old 02-26-2017, 03:45 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jefro240 View Post
That is where I'd start... If that LCA is as you say it can definitely cause issues and myself, I'd be swapping out that out. Then I'd go back over the kit and make sure its installed 100% correctly.
That's my first plan. I just find it hard to think that a little bit of bending axially would cause major changes laterally....if that makes any sense. Thanks for the reply though, I'm definitely getting new arms.

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Originally Posted by gaz_moose View Post
take both LCA's off and put them side by side on a flat surface.
I'll end up doing this when I change my arms.
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Old 10-31-2017, 09:27 PM   #5
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Removing this update as the OP is now current.

Last edited by Thursday7; 06-01-2022 at 01:43 PM..
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Old 10-31-2017, 09:44 PM   #6
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Post some pics up dude if you get a chance.. a fresh set of eyes sometimes helps


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Old 06-01-2022, 01:52 PM   #7
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Bumping this. See first post, updated. Sorry for the ridiculous thread title. Was working on this car again this past weekend and issue still bothers me. I've gotten good at ignoring it but if there's some solution I continue to miss because I'm an idiot, that would be what I'm looking for.
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Old 06-02-2022, 11:20 AM   #8
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Interesting problem.

in short, you essentially have
-passenger side ride height is significantly lower than drivers side
-passenger track width is "wider" compared to drivers side
-camber difference on pass side

These symptoms persist regardless of the S14 arms or extended S13 arms?
The knuckles can only go on one way, and I assume you didn't have manufacturing defects both times.

If the coilovers are still the same, then I'd ask if you are hearing ANY weird noises on them. If you say the only things that changed were the arms and RCA kit then here's what I'd look at.

Coilovers - Make sure camber settings up top are even on both sides. Make sure the top mounting hole isnt slotted where it mates to the knuckle. Some people oval out the holes to get some camber adjustment.
-Check the lower mount to make sure it's not bent, but if you are able to adjust it to try to get more ride height, I'd assume it's fine.
- Make sure the springs are identical on both coils. Sounds stupid but Idk if you bought those coils new or not.
-Make sure upper perches are at the same height. I assume you have verified this but still.


Knuckles - verify that the knuckle to lower coilover mounts are all using the same hardware. This sounds like you have one eccentric bolt set to negative camber on the passenger side.
Just make sure all 4(?) bolts are all the same, or are not mismatched (like you have an eccentric bolt on the bottom mount).
Other than that, I can't even find the site for the knuckles but I can't imagine that they're off center.

Hubs - just want to make sure you don't have some howling ass hub on the passenger side. Just making sure your wheel bearing isn't really toasted. In an extreme case that could be it but highly unlikely here.

20mm extended s13 arms - I've seen professionals mess up on a daily basis. I'd check both of them for the distance from the mounting holes to the ball joint. It's really hard to hit 20.000mm.

Tension rods - just make sure they are both even, I assume the bushings are both good too?


I would like to see pictures.

In general, you can also get a boroscope like one of these. I scored one for $20 and it helps in looking for stuff that I can't fit my head in.

Also, the subframe mounting holes on the frame rail are pretty tight. If you do think that your subframe has shifted I would think you'd also get some clunking with it too. Check around where it mounts to see if you can find any paint spidering.

The bent coilover is something one can kind of point to. I assume you had the same coilovers on from when you:
-originally had a good alignment prior to installing GKteck and S14 arms
-first encountered the issue after installing GKteck and S14 arms
-Still had the same problems with the extended S13 and DD knuckles

It might not be the entire coilover being bent, could just be the lower threaded mount.
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Old 06-02-2022, 09:12 PM   #9
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If you've changed LCAs and coilovers and the problem persists I can only suspect three things:

- Frame tweaked in a way that's not immediately obvious like a collapsed strut tower. You could go through the frame cross-measurements in the FSM to make sure the suspension pickup points are all in spec side to side.

- Knuckle is somehow bent. I'd expect this to crack not bend though.

- You're gauging how visibly level it looks and the wheelgap from the fender lip, and it's the fender that's out of whack.

For what it's worth I stuck a digital level/angle finder on my core support and found it was off by about .75 degrees - passenger side high - with my coilovers on the exact same setting left to right. My car is otherwise completely stock chassis-wise, no altered geometry, and it's never been crashed, and I drive like an old man. My car hasn't had an alignment since replacing the rack and tie rods so I decided to mess with the shock body height and preload to see if I could level it and I couldn't, at least with conservative changes that wouldn't have resulted in it being way different side to side like yours. The car would just settle back to being passenger side high. .75 degrees of tilt over the S13's stock track width is equivalent to one side being 3/4" high. Though measuring from wheel center to fender lip (that's how Miata guys do it) the wheelgap is only maybe 3/8" different, but then even in my non-crashed car the front fender lips might be unreliable.
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Old 06-03-2022, 10:11 AM   #10
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Gonna respond below in red. Feels like I'm at work lol. Responses are not intended to sound harsh if they come off this way, just explaining the situation further using your guys' responses.

Collegekid said (doing it this way becuase reading a quote box this size is hard on the eyes):
Interesting problem.

in short, you essentially have
-passenger side ride height is significantly lower than drivers side Yes, if I have the coilover settings mirrored side-to-side, the ride height difference is egregious. I have it adjusted, albeit eyesight adjusted, to be as even as I can get it.
-passenger track width is "wider" compared to drivers side Yes, very much so. No spacers on pass side, about ~18mm on driver's side. Pass side pokes maybe 2mm more still.
-camber difference on pass side This one is a little less of an issue but I'd say yes there's something affecting camber. As of now my camber plates are even side-to-side, FLCA are a fixed length, and camber side to side is even (within .5 degrees or so per my last alignment).

These symptoms persist regardless of the S14 arms or extended S13 arms? Correct
The knuckles can only go on one way, and I assume you didn't have manufacturing defects both times. Yes, the issue did not remedy itself at all when I went to modded S13 arm + knuck from S14 arm and stock knuck + GKTech. This change alone strongly indicates that the arm and/or knuckle (including presense of GK RCA) are not the issue.

If the coilovers are still the same, then I'd ask if you are hearing ANY weird noises on them. If you say the only things that changed were the arms and RCA kit then here's what I'd look at. Coilovers never changed since the problem was nonexistent. Coilovers bought new by me.

Coilovers - Make sure camber settings up top are even on both sides. It is. Make sure the top mounting hole isnt slotted where it mates to the knuckle. The ones I have do not have slotted knuckle mounts. Some people oval out the holes to get some camber adjustment.
-Check the lower mount to make sure it's not bent, but if you are able to adjust it to try to get more ride height, I'd assume it's fine. Agreed. Spins freely too.
- Make sure the springs are identical on both coils. Sounds stupid but Idk if you bought those coils new or not. Bought new and they are not a high quality coilover (bought before I had actual income lol) so springs are standard default rates/lengths.
-Make sure upper perches are at the same height. I assume you have verified this but still. I have never verified preload with a fine-toothed comb, but have verified by spin friction of the unloaded springs. Did not feel the need to dig deeper here as my symptoms are way more extensive than a minor adjustment of something.


Knuckles - verify that the knuckle to lower coilover mounts are all using the same hardware. This sounds like you have one eccentric bolt set to negative camber on the passenger side. Are these eccentric on an S13? I am in disbelief, would be big news to me.
Just make sure all 4(?) bolts are all the same, or are not mismatched (like you have an eccentric bolt on the bottom mount). See above comment.
Other than that, I can't even find the site for the knuckles but I can't imagine that they're off center. These are modified stock kunckles by Russ Barcomb. He is an oldhead fabricator that is pretty renowned in the New England drift community. Not sure he still does this service but I stand behind his craftsmanship. Also, gonna reiterate that this issue was present before and after the new knuckle and LCA. I feel this is evidence that the items themselves are not going to be the issue.

Hubs - just want to make sure you don't have some howling ass hub on the passenger side. Just making sure your wheel bearing isn't really toasted. In an extreme case that could be it but highly unlikely here. I have actually noticed a wheel bearing going out on the pass side and am replacing it with a 5 lug swap soon. But this only creates a small amount of play, and I find it hard to believe it would cause a static alignment change like this.

20mm extended s13 arms - I've seen professionals mess up on a daily basis. I'd check both of them for the distance from the mounting holes to the ball joint. It's really hard to hit 20.000mm. They were done using the Villians extension pieces. Again, issue existed on OE S14 kunckles as well, and even if there was a .5mm error, it wouldn't create a 1-2 inch variance in ride height and 20mm difference in track.

Tension rods - just make sure they are both even, I assume the bushings are both good too? Even as of last alignment. They are heim joint units bought new by me.


I would like to see pictures. Me too. I'll add that to the list of things next time the car is being worked on.

In general, you can also get a boroscope like one of these. I scored one for $20 and it helps in looking for stuff that I can't fit my head in.

Also, the subframe mounting holes on the frame rail are pretty tight. If you do think that your subframe has shifted I would think you'd also get some clunking with it too. Check around where it mounts to see if you can find any paint spidering. Wil do. I also think that this is unlikely. More likely that it's bent somehow?

The bent coilover is something one can kind of point to. I assume you had the same coilovers on from when you:
-originally had a good alignment prior to installing GKteck and S14 arms Yes
-first encountered the issue after installing GKteck and S14 arms yes
-Still had the same problems with the extended S13 and DD knuckles eeYup

It might not be the entire coilover being bent, could just be the lower threaded mount.

AKADriver said:
If you've changed LCAs and coilovers and the problem persists I can only suspect three things: I never changed coilovers.

- Frame tweaked in a way that's not immediately obvious like a collapsed strut tower. You could go through the frame cross-measurements in the FSM to make sure the suspension pickup points are all in spec side to side. I'd like to do this. I need the proper measuring tool a frame shop uses if I were to trust my measurements.

- Knuckle is somehow bent. I'd expect this to crack not bend though. Unlikely given the issue existed with stock knuckle + GK and my modded knuckles. It's important to note that the cores I sent to Dang Drifters came from a different, stock shell.

- You're gauging how visibly level it looks and the wheelgap from the fender lip, and it's the fender that's out of whack. If you were with my car you'd know it's not that. I've had a few sets of original fenders on and the issue doesn't change. The vast variance in track and ride height (if not band-aid remedied in the ways that I am currently doing) speak for themselves

For what it's worth I stuck a digital level/angle finder on my core support and found it was off by about .75 degrees - passenger side high - with my coilovers on the exact same setting left to right. My car is otherwise completely stock chassis-wise, no altered geometry, and it's never been crashed, and I drive like an old man. My car hasn't had an alignment since replacing the rack and tie rods so I decided to mess with the shock body height and preload to see if I could level it and I couldn't, at least with conservative changes that wouldn't have resulted in it being way different side to side like yours. The car would just settle back to being passenger side high. .75 degrees of tilt over the S13's stock track width is equivalent to one side being 3/4" high. Though measuring from wheel center to fender lip (that's how Miata guys do it) the wheelgap is only maybe 3/8" different, but then even in my non-crashed car the front fender lips might be unreliable.
I like that you pointed this out. What you are seeing, in my eyes, is just the realities of an old chassis. My issue is "Something is obviously not right here."
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Old 06-03-2022, 11:42 AM   #11
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Direct and to the point, no offense taken, that's why I post here

The coilover being the same set even before the problem doesn't change my thoughts I guess.

"Old chassis problems" is exactly what I was thinking, I was using my 99% stock grandpa car of an example of how stuff can be out of line and hard to adjust even on a car that has never had significant stress in its life.

MrMigs' thread about his 430k+ chassis really makes me wonder if your front frame rails or subframe have a stress fracture in some non-obvious spot that just happened to let go when you installed the lcas.
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Old 06-06-2022, 11:19 AM   #12
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I'm literally SHAKING RN Thursday7.

LOL

We definitely need pics, cuz we are just speculating here.
You should be able to to do the frame measurements with a tape measure. In your case, you are looking for consistency side to side instead of an accurate measurement.

Another thing could be bent mounting bolt on the lower coilover mount.
Since the bolts probably not eccentric, the alignment people wouldn't turn it?
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Old 06-09-2022, 09:38 AM   #13
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After reading all of these replies, it really seems like there's something wrong with the car itself and not the suspension parts. I'll throw my 2cent bet at the strut towers being rusted and tweaked from a life of drifting.

Lower arms bolt to subframe, so won't change 20mm side to side, unless whole front of the car is pushed over. You hit a curb around the time this all started?
Same with tension rods.
This leaves strut towers as last remaining mount point.
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Old 06-09-2022, 09:49 AM   #14
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What if you were to swap the front coilovers?
-If the passenger side is still high then I would lean to a chassis issue.
-If the height difference follows the coilover maybe one has a weak spring.
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Old 07-06-2022, 10:09 AM   #15
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Ok, thank you for the responses so far. Here are some images. I wasn't able to get photos of the wheel fitment from the exterior at the time because the car wasn't lowered to the ground until it was too dark/rainy when I was with the car. It's probably harder to capture with the camera anyway, but if you were outside of the car looking closely, the passenger side (this corresponds with the first pair of images) still sits slightly lower and has more track than the driver's side, which as seen in the images, has a maxxed coilover and 15mm additional spacer (you can't see the spacer but take my word for it). Please take note to angle of the LCA and location of coilover adjustment with this in mind.

Passenger side (the lower side with more track)






Driver side (the higher side, even though the coilover is maxed low). This side also has 15mm more spacer on it and still sits with less track than the passenger side with 15mm less spacer




Last edited by Thursday7; 07-07-2022 at 08:07 AM..
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Old 07-09-2022, 09:43 AM   #16
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Is the driver's side spring under a lot more preload? Oddly given that it's the tall side it looks much shorter.
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Old 07-11-2022, 09:58 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AKADriver View Post
Is the driver's side spring under a lot more preload? Oddly given that it's the tall side it looks much shorter.
The driver's side is the "tall side" if both coilovers were set equal, which as you can see they very much are not. The driver's side is much shorter to compensate for the passenger side being the "short side".

I don't think the preload is varying. I can double check but last I checked both sides had the same amount of friction in the spring when unloaded (i.e. stiff but spinnable).
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