So, who has the power?

[kingkilburn]

And you literally are an ass.

The law gives police the right to detain ANYONE who is suspicious. They all ready had the right to detain noncitizens but they had to prove they weren't citizens before they cuold detain them. That is not the case now.

You absolutely fail to comprehend what I am saying.

[aznpoopy]

double post

[aznpoopy]

Originally Posted by kingkilburn

Detaining some one based solely on the color of their skin IS unreasonable.

of course it is. the point is that it's racial profiling as wrong per se, but racial profiling stops are pseudo-legitimized under the the pretextual stop rationale delineated under whren v. US.

Whren v. United States

in other words, i didn't pull you over b/c you were hispanic, but i targeted you because you were hispanic (not that i would admit it) and then followed you around until you made a technical infraction (e.g. 1mph over speed limit) and then pulled you over for it, or something similarly retarded, which is 100% legal under whren.

Originally Posted by jspaeth

It is that if you are not carrying proof of citizenship, you could be detained

"detain" is the initial stop. you have that backwards. you can be detained for any reason (e.g. 1mph over the limit - pretextual stop based in reality on racial profiling). upon such detainment, if reasonable suspicion exists, they can then inquire as to your immigration status.

[ronmcdon]

Originally Posted by kingkilburn

Well when they amended it it will be lawful. Until then it's garbage.

Prop 8 has been law after it was voted in Nov 08, so it is infact currently lawful.
It will remain so, until it's challenged in court & gets overturned.
It's been challenged in court once already but held.

If you look at Prop 22 a few years prior, it was more or less the same deal.
Courts INTERPRETED it as un-constitutional.

Imo, the constitution is important as far it's judicial interpretation.
The most you can complain about really is that the courts may be inconsistent and the constitution vague.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Califor...sition_8_(2008)

California's State Constitution put Proposition 8 into immediate effect the day after the election.[4] The proposition did not affect domestic partnerships in California [5] or same-sex marriages performed before November 5, 2008.[6][7][8]

These protests led to several lawsuits being filed in the State Supreme Court and the Federal District Court. On November 13, 2008, the California Supreme Court asked California Attorney General Jerry Brown for an opinion on whether the Court should accept these cases for review and whether the measure should be suspended while they decide the case. On November 19, the Court accepted three lawsuits challenging Proposition 8, which consolidated into Strauss v. Horton.[158] When the Supreme Court upheld the voter initiative, a suit, Perry v. Schwarzenegger was filed in a Federal District Court in San Francisco. A trial as of January 11, 2010 is currently being held.[159]

[g6civcx]

Originally Posted by aznpoopy

the point is that it's racial profiling as wrong per se

Careful how you use "per se". It's a pet peeve of mine.

Originally Posted by aznpoopy

"detain" is the initial stop. you have that backwards. you can be detained for any reason (e.g. 1mph over the limit - pretextual stop based in reality on racial profiling). upon such detainment, if reasonable suspicion exists, they can then inquire as to your immigration status.

The officer on the scene has the right to "detain" anyone for any reason to control the scene.

Detention can include subduing, handcuff, and imprisonment.

You are not required to be given any rights while under detention as compared with being under "arrest".

[kingkilburn]

Prop 8 may be "law" but it is still extremely unconstitutional.

I'll say it again.
When you can justify taking one man's rights you can justify taking any rights from any man.

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by kingkilburn

Prop 8 may be "law" but it is still extremely unconstitutional.

I'll say it again.
When you can justify taking one man's rights you can justify taking any rights from any man.

Answer this question. A person is in the country ILLEGAL...they are breaking a law.


How is anyone supposed to find out that the person is here illegally if NO ONE IS EVER ALLOWED TO QUESTION THEM UNLESS THEY ARE BREAKING ANOTHER LAW?


So you are breaking a law by being here illegally, but you can't ever possibly get caught for doing that unless you do something ELSE illegal?

That literally makes no sense.


Just like the democrats, you provide no rational, common-sense way for determining who is legal and who is not.


I am not racist, if you are black, yellow, green, red or brown but are here legally, WELCOME!

If you are black, yellow, green, WHITE, red, or brown and are here ILLEGALLY, get the fuck out!


I am so sick of this bullshit. I have friends that have had to leave the country (EDUCATED people with PhDs studying and actually contributing in a MAJOR way).

Yet YOU are okay with them being kicked out bc they FOLLOW THE RULES, but people who knowingly break them are allowed to stay.


Fuck that, you make no sense.

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by kingkilburn

Prop 8 may be "law" but it is still extremely unconstitutional.

I'll say it again.
When you can justify taking one man's rights you can justify taking any rights from any man.

Also, nowhere does it say that a NON-CITIZEN has the right to evade being asked to show proof of citizenship.


It's like there is a loophole, you KNOW there is a loophole, and you just don't care.

[kingkilburn]

They are taking my rights away under the guise that they are protecting me from some outside threat. That is what is wrong.

I made no comment on the issue of how to determine some one's citizenship. I'm sure I could come up with some kind of solution though.
I'm sorry your friends were deported but I have nothing to do with that and you shouldn't take it out on me for simply disagreeing with you.

As an answer to your question I would say do a proper investigation. That means you do not punish some one through imprisonment before you know if they are legal or not. It also means you do not take a citizens rights away under suspicion that they are not citizens.

Personally when it comes to immigration I am in favor of letting pretty much every one in. Unless there is a documented reason you should not be here why not? They should give'm all amnesty and citizenship.





I'm sorry if that seems disjointed. My thoughts are going a mile a minute in all different directions.





Edit

Why does any one have to show proof of citizenship on request? This is the land of the free not some fascist police sate.

You assume who ever you are talking to is a law abiding citizen until they prove otherwise. You don't go around arresting every "suspicious" person you come across.


Edit #2

Shouldn't the burden of proof lie with the court not the accused. Let them prove that I am not a citizen before arresting me. What would I do, leave the country?

[ronmcdon]

Originally Posted by kingkilburn

Prop 8 may be "law" but it is still extremely unconstitutional.

I'll say it again.
When you can justify taking one man's rights you can justify taking any rights from any man.

well hey, you're perfectly entitled to your opinion.
what you consider constitutional, rights, may not be universally accepted.
One need not look past politics to acknowlege this.
I don't always agree either, but the law is what it is.

Want something legally changed?
Vote, take it to court, and/or deal with it.
It's about all that can be done, as far as what's practical.

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by kingkilburn

Personally when it comes to immigration I am in favor of letting pretty much every one in. Unless there is a documented reason you should not be here why not? They should give'm all amnesty and citizenship.

This statement is enough for me to realize that you are not worth even arguing with. Have fun.

Our country alread has enough trouble with our OWN poor. We don't need an influx of more and more poor, uneductated, unskilled people coming in.

Literally done responding to you after the above statement, as your intentions are clear.

[kingkilburn]

ron - I would not belly ache if I didn't participate. I feel that those that do not participate have no valid opinion and have no right speak on the matter.

jspaeth - If you can't handle disagreement why did you even post? Please tell the world what my intentions are. Also I am debating. If you have taken this to the level of an argument please do go cool down before you get to emotional and make another personal attack.

[g6civcx]

Okay, I have gone through the legal process for immigration to get my citizenship. It took me over 17 years and more than $35,000 in legal fees.

From my personal and legal experience, the US immigration system is fuct. The law is obscure. The courts are underfunded and overworked.

I would like to put any of you through the process and see what your experience would be.

And it's not like I came here for economic prosperity. I am here as the direct result of American foreign policy. My family was forced to serve for the US military. When the US pulled out, it was stay/go to jail/die or leave. No other country would take us because we are political refugees.

I stay out of jail. I work hard. I pay my taxes. I volunteer. I spent most of professional career serving veterans and the public.

The laws don't bother me. The public mentality that illegal immigrants are criminals and a strain public resources bother me.

In my personal experience, 95% of undocumented immigrants just want to work and pay taxes.

It's easy to blame someone/something for our problems. If an illegal immigrant who doesn't speak the language and have no education steals your job, why can't you get a better job?

99% of the general population can't steal my job. I worked hard to get my job. Why can't you?

If you look at tax filings, some undocumented immigrants actually pay taxes. How many naturalized people evade taxes, or do other crimes?

If you want to take out 95% of the good people to target the 5% criminal population, this will not even make a small dent in the current problems in the US. It's not even a drop in the bucket.

I've worked on the US Congressonal budget. The US wastes hundreds and thousands of trillions of dollars on non-defense spending. Nobody can do anything because the people who are sucking the money are very powerful and entrenched.

[g6civcx]

My solution:

Grant amnesty to everyone here or wants to come here. Create a national registry of immigrants. Put them on probationary status. Do not give them welfare. If they commit a crime, deport them forever. Require them to purchase health insurance.

Tax them double the rate of citizens.

Make them pass a 12-grade English proficiency exam and deport if failed, but then you'd have to also deport like half of the citizens as well.

That should take care of most of your concerns.

[LimeLite Racing]

[amdnivram]

Originally Posted by jspaeth

I think there is something wrong with your wiring.

The idea is not to DETAIN someone BECAUSE of the color of their skin. It is that if you are not carrying proof of citizenship, you could be detained, because

THE LAW ALREADY STATES THAT IF YOU ARE NOT A CITIZEN, YOU HAVE TO CARRY PAPERS.


What is the point of carrying the citizenship or green card if no one can ever check it?

You literally have no common sense.

Well it may be the idea, but how do you think people will get chosen to dhow their identification. I would rather not live here than having to constantly prove my residency. Not because its such a hassle but because its an obvious invasion of privacy. We might as well wear armbands.

[ronmcdon]

My solution isn't all that different.

Reorganize immigration.
Allow those who want to come, with conditions.
They need to demonstrate they can speak the language with some degree of proficiency.
They need to prove they're productive members of society.
(proof of employment, credit score, no criminal record, etc).
Give positive preferential treatment to established/educated proffesionals in demand in our country.

Offer this at a reasonable cost, maybe $5k/head.
Better the needed money goes into our government's pocket than human traffickers.

Do not offer citizenship outright.
Offer a probabtionary work permit that monitors them for whatever duration deemed neccesary.
Tax them as would any other citizen.
Double taxes would just encourage tax evasion and/or illegal immigration, so I am not really for this.

What I'm not really comfortable about is immigrants sending a good portion of their income back to family/friends in their home country.
That simply can't be good for our economy.
(Would encourage inflation perhaps?)
Their finances should probably be more tightly regulated.

Agreed with health insurance.
Give them drivers licences if needed be and make damn well sure they get legit auto insurance.

[kingkilburn]

The problems with gaining citizenship are why I say give everyone instant citizenship. My only requirement would be that you speak or are actively learning to speak English(I know that part is controversial so save it for it's own thread).

It would be as simple as going to the DMV and signing the paperwork.

[g6civcx]

Originally Posted by ronmcdon

They need to demonstrate they can speak the language with some degree of proficiency

Before we can do that we need to establish English as the official language. Right the US does not have an official language. We just happen to speak English because it's convenient.

Originally Posted by ronmcdon

They need to prove they're productive members of society.
(proof of employment, credit score, no criminal record, etc)

I disagree with the credit score. This mechanism is meant to measure how good you are as a consumer, not how good you are as a citizen. Maybe they are the same? But the credit score was developed by private companies to measure who would be good candidates to take money from.

Originally Posted by ronmcdon

Give positive preferential treatment to established/educated proffesionals in demand in our country.

We already have this in the visa program so it's no different than what we have now.

Originally Posted by ronmcdon

Offer this at a reasonable cost, maybe $5k/head.
Better the needed money goes into our government's pocket than human traffickers.

It already costs almost this much in fees. The problem is nobody knows what the fuck paperwork to file so lawyers make like $50k/head.

Originally Posted by ronmcdon

Do not offer citizenship outright.
Offer a probabtionary work permit that monitors them for whatever duration deemed neccesary.
Tax them as would any other citizen.
Double taxes would just encourage tax evasion and/or illegal immigration, so I am not really for this.

Tax evaders already evade no matter what the tax rate is. Make them earn their keep.

Originally Posted by ronmcdon

What I'm not really comfortable about is immigrants sending a good portion of their income back to family/friends in their home country.
That simply can't be good for our economy.
(Would encourage inflation perhaps?)

It would be good if those countries are buying US exports. We have to start making stuff people want to buy first though.

Originally Posted by ronmcdon

Their finances should probably be more tightly regulated.

We already have tax laws. This is not different from what we have now.


Most of the stuff you suggest we already have. It's just that the system is so fuct nobody knows that these things exist.

[g6civcx]

Originally Posted by kingkilburn

My only requirement would be that you speak or are actively learning to speak English(I know that part is controversial so save it for it's own thread).

99% of the general population do not speak proper English. "Proper" English is defined by English textbooks published in ENGland.

We speak a slightly different dialect called American English.

[LimeLite Racing]

Originally Posted by g6civcx

99% of the general population do not speak proper English. "Proper" English is defined by English textbooks published in ENGland.

We speak a slightly different dialect called American English.

Bullshit. English is the same language throughout the "English" speaking countries. The "King's English" blah blah blah... it's all the same shit. In America, we speak English. If I go to Mexico, and speak English I would not be understood. Fortunately I don't live in fucking Mexico. I live in AMERICA. IN AMERICA, WE SPEAK FUCKING ENGLISH.

I would be able to understand a person in England as much as I would be able to understand my next door neighbor.. (that is if he isn't a mexican who doesn't speak English)

[ronmcdon]

no its not the same.

differences are subtle but nonethless there.
I.E. Color spelt Colour, paycheck spelt paycheque.

It's not like an Englishment won't be able to function in the US, or vice-versa,
but the differences are nonetheless there.

[kingkilburn]

American English - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[theicecreamdan]

Originally Posted by LimeLite Racing

I would be able to understand a person in England as much as I would be able to understand my next door neighbor.. (that is if he isn't a mexican who doesn't speak English)

Have you tested this? It would be easy, but there will be some adjustment necessary. Easier than going from spanish to english. I have met ZERO mexicans, mexican americans, french, german, etc tourists who I couldn't communicate with.

Language isn't the barrier to your communication issues.

Originally Posted by g6civcx

It's easy to blame someone/something for our problems. If an illegal immigrant who doesn't speak the language and have no education steals your job, why can't you get a better job?

Because this deserves to be repeated.

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by theicecreamdan

Have you tested this? It would be easy, but there will be some adjustment necessary. Easier than going from spanish to english. I have met ZERO mexicans, mexican americans, french, german, etc tourists who I couldn't communicate with.

Language isn't the barrier to your communication issues.



Because this deserves to be repeated.

I will come back into the discussion.

I have 2 problems with illegal immigrants, NEITHER OF WHICH is "they take our jobs".


1) Use many of the publicly funding things in this country without paying taxes (they are literally breaking the backs of the healthcare facilities in the Southwest).

2) Letting in $20 million+ Mexicans become citizens overnight does NOT provide any incentive for them to assimiliate. Like we have seen over and over again.


I have a problem with Mexicans who want to BRING MEXICO here. If you want to come here and be an American fine.


Do you see millions of Swedish immigrants coming to the US and having rallies and waving Swedish flags and speaking only Swedish?

No, I thought not.

How can we grant citizenship to another $25 million (mostly) poor people, when we can't even take care of the poor that are currently here (without stealing money from those who are successful)?

The Democratic Party wants these people legalized PURELY because they know that it generates enough votes to give them an absolute majority.

Solution:

If you are here, you can be a "guest worker" or whatever, but you MUST pay taxes.

If no taxes paid, NO (ZERO) access to any public benefits (healthcare, etc.).

Build a fence to stop people from coming in illegally. In the future, anyone caught coming in illegally is immediately deported.

EVERY PERSON (including current US citizens) must AT ALL TIME (not jsut while driving) carry either a US Driver's License or other proof of citizenship.

[kingkilburn]

#1 They pay taxes on the things they buy and on the legitimate jobs most of them do have. Really what the problem is here is a flawed healthcare system.

#2 Society is who dictates assimilation. The government can do nothing to further this goal. We should be outraged at the reconquesta BS but most people(read politically correct scared white people) want to roll over and let them be. We should also be outraged at the Arab Muslims who bring their archaic chauvinistic customs here and KILL their own daughters for not doing what they are told.

Welcome back to the discussion.

[Karlitos]

This thread seemed to turn away from the original topic of SB1070 and now just a general immigration discussion. I will now post MY POV in replies to post after my first post.

Originally Posted by Matej

The whole immigration process in the US is pretty silly.

Educated people from first and second world countries do not move here anymore because they have better opportunities in their home countries. Even if they wanted to move here, they would have to jump through so many bureaucratic hoops that is is nowhere near worth it to them. And coming here illegally is definitely not worth it to them at all, that is not even an option. So they stay living happily in their home countries. America is not luring in engineers, scientists, and other great minds from all over the world as it once used to.

Yet 'refugees' seem to be welcomed with open arms. Pretty much all it takes to be let into the US is to be from some country that Americans assume evil/poor/crappy, and to make up some story about how your native government is tyrannical or whatever, and make sure to make it sound a lot worse than it really is. Middle Easterners are pouring in. Indians are coming. And America loves to turn a blind eye to illegal immigrants. Thanks to sophisticated networks and connections, most illegal immigrants have it easier here than legal immigrants, easier even than many regular citizens. Plus the government itself seems to be lending a helping hand.

And the entire US citizenship process is a joke. Especially compared to other countries. I do not even want to get into that.

Yes the process is silly, expensive, a joke, and mostly impossible if you don't know what your doing. So you hire a broker who takes half your money. Not fair but will get you citizenship EVENTUALLY. Which is what we want, right? Legals and not illegals.

Why else would they come for if not for opportunities? Most are not here to commit crimes, they are here to work their asses off and support their families here or in their home country.

Refugees are a different story, and must actually meet certain requirements before they are accepted as a refugee. Middle Eastern' and Indians aren't coming by way of refuge, but of normal legal or illegal immigration. Yes illegals are other races besides mexican. The U.S. is too busy to worry about immigration when they have bigger issues such as the economy, where illegals are trying to help. And no illegals don't have it easier. Most lived paranoid trying to stay away from trouble and wondering if their job will get raided by the BP.

Originally Posted by theicecreamdan

Arizona bill targeting ethnic studies signed into law - latimes.com

Maybe the slippery slope arguments have some validity in this case.

Thats just wrong. Its like saying it's wrong to learn about a different culture where the students taking the classes are Mexican that have been white-washed and trying to grow back to their roots. Kids in Mexico enjoy and love to take english/US History classes why does the US deny that kids here. Its an elective you choose to take it and should have be conscious of the course material, if taking in Junior or Senior High.

Originally Posted by ronmcdon

That's another can worms.
They are talking about cancelling ethnic studies classes.
(Chicano studies specifically?)

I won't disagree with AZ policy there specifically.
I'm skeptical any Liberal Arts classes have any practical value whatsoever.

They do have value, to learn about the history of a culture weather it be asian, mexican european. If this were to be fair it should end classes of Euro history since they too controlled US soil once. But its not practical to take away them because they were white. Thats not fair.

Originally Posted by Brian

I think they decided to only mention Chicano classes to add more fuel to the fire. (***LA Times, by the way, see me following thought down below.)

I don't necessarily agree with that new decision, but I kind of see why they did it... sort of. We're supposed to be moving away from racism... but I feel like this country is making racism more popular quite frankly.





Anyways, what is the shit about Los Angeles not doing any business with Arizona? Boycotting Arizona businss? I really hate a lot of people right now for being so stupid. It's unreal.

I am truly amazed at how much shit there is right now to SUPPORT illegal immigrants.
It's like upside down world right now. WTF???


Do people even think at all anymore? It's no wonder the rest of the world is laughing their asses off at the USA right now.

It does feel like we are moving toward racism and its not right. Its happening in San Diego as well. It's not dumb it's called winning votes. Population in these cities in Hispanic, you do something that they support and you win votes. They're against something thats wrong in the first place so stand up to get what's right. Like when the SUNS used the "Los Suns" Shirts they showed support but now for boycotting they hardly sold tickets because people are afraid to leave and that must be fixed. People are just trying to do the right thing, their not supporting illegal immigration but demanding for the system to be fixed.

Originally Posted by revat619

^^^^

EXACTLY.

This country is so retarded sometimes. The bottom line is, as a legal and tax paying citizen, i shouldn't have to pay for an illegal's shit. PERIOD. No matter how "deserving" they feel they are.

Most illegals don't receive any benefits, and most also pay taxes, making them tax payers. They don't feel deserving they are equal and demand equality to a certain point and full equality if they are legal.

Originally Posted by ronmcdon

Why do you think the US is making racism more popular?

About the forementioned classes
My co-worker, who is 3rd gen Mexican, actually took a Chicano studies class recently @ the local city college.
Most of the stuff they taught was more or less was just bashing the US.
It was just really one sided, bias arguments.
It was all criticism and pretty much no praise.
Garbage arguments like they stole from the Mexican government and did terrible things.
No doubt the US did a lot of wrong, but what nation's government did not?

I don't see any value in a class like that.
It just encourages resentment, imo.
My co-worker is kinda pissed that he feels the curriculum is fostering such hostility & being so ungrateful.
I would have to agree, esp given how kids can be so impressionable.

It probably is just an isolated incident.
However, I can appreciate what AZ is trying to do, if they're having the same situation.

Even if you're interested in rediscovering your cultural identity,
I don't see how you need to take a formal college class for that.
Seems like a waste of funding to me (in a time where it's arguably scarce).

I don't know what college but chicano studies usually means culture, mexican history would be the war with the US and the loss of land because of Santa Ana and his greedy personality. And yes all governments have done something wrong but the new law is worse then wrong.
Its called being informed and mature about the topic. Take it how you like it but most are just stated facts of what happened. Books are usually written by white people or white-washed mexicans and are show bias to america. Books in mexico are worse towards Santa Ana since he is the one that messed up. Where else can you learn? College is usually accredited by an organization that approves their curriculum what better source to learn from?

Originally Posted by ronmcdon

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact there is racial profiling going on.
The bill, or so I get the impression, is targeting Hispanics.

Also, maybe a lot of ppl have relatives/friends who they want to bring over illegally.
As far as I know, a lot of coyotes go through AZ.
Maybe going through other states makes it more dangerous and/or expensive.
Not saying it's right or wrong, just contemplating the practical concerns.

It is, and thats the wrong part, it should target general illegals not hispanics. Coyotes go through anywhere they can with no guarantees. The best way is to pay off an agent in a booth like they did in San Ysidro a couple of weeks ago.

Originally Posted by Gnnr

That's it right there. The bottom line. That's why I think the US is going to find a "path to citizenship" solution. 10+ million illegal immigrants. Cost of deporting all of them vs. profit from taxing them. Just my late night conspiracy theory though...

except most already pay taxes. and the way things are going not much is going to get done with current political leaders.

Originally Posted by Brian

Well, I don't know but I feel like I see so much these days about race. I thought we were supposed to become more raceless. I feel like more than ever, things are created BASED on race. Channels ,award shows, clothing companies, etc.


I just feel like we're going backwards in some ways.


That's sort of off topic I guess.


Anyways, I want to see The United States of America. I want United States citizens. I want people to be here because they should be. I want them to work and pay taxes (well, it would ben ice not to, lol). Let's be Americans!

I don't want to see "The States of America...somewhat".

This is America. We should make the rules. I'm tired of other people making the rules. It's bullshit.

It's called stereotypes. People get mad when mentioned but most likely fill them. It's life get use to it, thats on the people not the government and will most likely not change.
People are here because they see opportunities to live better. If you want to get rid of people their are some undeserving legals as well. And americans make the rules that others don't like.


its late I'm tired ill add more later. They're is just so many things wrong in this thread most people have no clue. read my first post as i think its more informational as to why. I'm just trying to fix the people that have no clue what they're saying.

[Touge Noob S13]

Hey karlitos, I've taken a "Chicano studies" class and I didn't learn shit about my peoples history. All they talked about is "the white man is putting us down" and that we are "Aztecs". If I disgreed with what they said I apperntly was "white washed".

[amdnivram]

I think the classes really vary depending on the school. Education is not equal and "lower colleges" will have a greater amount of bias or atleast less rationality when it comes to solutions/reactions. Its the same for class like women studies and african studies in which men or white men are the oppressors and still to blame.

[kingkilburn]

Most mexicans are not aztec but one of the many tribes that they themselves took over. The aztecs were from the US southwest not mexico.

sounds to me like chicano studies is the same as womens studies or black history, just about a different people the white man has kept down.