LCA's fall victim to energy suspension (2004 thread updated with 2009 information!)

[ixfxi]

Originally Posted by 95se

Thats not correct.. its the twisting motion that the bushing doesn't allow.

I know the original post is referring to the TC rods, but this is not what I am referring to in my post. I am talking about all the little bushings in the rear control arms, spindle, etc. This is where you run into this problem:

ELEPHANT RACING Tech Topic, Polyurethane Bushings and Friction

I removed my polyurethane bushings and noticed a significant amount of wear within the bushings where the metal shaft/tube rotates in the bushing crevice. The polyurethane looked like it started to clump together and tear a bit, not a significant amount but enough for me to call it quits and move onto the nismo bushings.

Now, I received a bunch of nismo bushings several weeks ago and get this, the ones that were supposedly for the lower control arms did not fit. not only did they not fit, but they looked (and measured) damn near identical with the ones that fit the upper arms and spindle! I'll have to snap some photos.

Does anyone have part numbers for the nismo bushings for the lower control arms by any chance?

Thanks

[orion::S14]

Originally Posted by KFLS14

To my knowledge ES revised the tension rod bushing. (not sure exactly when but they did)Instead of being 1 piece solid it's not 2 pieces and comes with lube. (

Originally Posted by aznpoopy

it's three piece alex.
only a narrow center slice of the bushing is polyurethane, the sides are now normal rubber to allow twisting. they've always come with lube, for every bushing pair in the set. the lube does not stay in there though; you need to re-lubricate periodically (PITA).

I wanted to quote this so it didn;t get lost in the "OMG! Energy Suspension parts will ruin my car!" comments.

The new T/C rod bushing are perfectly fine. They realized there was a problem, redesigned them, and they now allow the flex that's needed so your front LCA won't crack.

Yes, spherical bearings are better...but we all knew that. But the new ES bushings, and the master kit...ARE FINE.

- Brian

[enkei2k]

as for grease, your ES poly set should have come with a little tube of grease

good information, i had no idea about that. i guess i'll end up getting ES master kit with some peak performance subframe spacers to go with it. or do i even need the spacers at all if i'm getting the master kit? better safe than sorry with the subframe spacers?

[CrimsonRockett]

Originally Posted by ixfxi

Now, I received a bunch of nismo bushings several weeks ago and get this, the ones that were supposedly for the lower control arms did not fit. not only did they not fit, but they looked (and measured) damn near identical with the ones that fit the upper arms and spindle! I'll have to snap some photos.

Does anyone have part numbers for the nismo bushings for the lower control arms by any chance?

Since I'm in the process of ordering Nismo bushings myself for the spare subframe I have, I managed to get these numbers from a worker @ Nissan.

NISMO SUBFRAME BUSHINGS
PT # 55400-RS590

NISMO REAR AXLE&LOWER CONTROL ARM LINK
PT# 55157-RS580

NISMO REAR SPINDLE BUSHING
PT# 55157-RS521

[aznpoopy]

this website also has the part # information
Nismoparts.com - Your #1 Source for OEM Parts and Accessories
(add to cart, then view cart, it will display the part #)

Originally Posted by enkei2k

good information, i had no idea about that. i guess i'll end up getting ES master kit with some peak performance subframe spacers to go with it. or do i even need the spacers at all if i'm getting the master kit? better safe than sorry with the subframe spacers?

i can tell you from firsthand experience that the master kit does not include subframe bushings. if you have subframe issues you will need to buy the spacers or bushings separately.

Originally Posted by singlecamslam

question, so the solution to this would be to either buy Nismo LCA bushings or grease? lots of it? Because i'm running SPL TC rods and installing nismo LCA bushings, does that sound like a good combo?

afaik the nismo bushings don't have this problem. at any rate, IMO polyurethane bushings are fine for the front and rear LCAs. i have ES bushings in my front LCA and never noticed any problems like you get in the rear multilink assembly.

[ixfxi]

Originally Posted by aznpoopy

afaik the nismo bushings don't have this problem. at any rate, IMO polyurethane bushings are fine for the front and rear LCAs. i have ES bushings in my front LCA and never noticed any problems like you get in the rear multilink assembly.

I have urethane in the front LCA which I will pull out soon, i am still working on the back end of the car and dont want to start the front (yet). but i can assure you if you look at the shaft that slides into the bushing and the inside of your bushings, you will see wear. you will need to lube them quite often (i would imagine every 6 months minimum) to ensure that they work as intended... hence the reason i am ditching them.

Originally Posted by CrimsonRockett

Since I'm in the process of ordering Nismo bushings myself for the spare subframe I have, I managed to get these numbers from a worker @ Nissan.

NISMO SUBFRAME BUSHINGS
PT # 55400-RS590

NISMO REAR AXLE&LOWER CONTROL ARM LINK
PT# 55157-RS580

NISMO REAR SPINDLE BUSHING
PT# 55157-RS521

edit: deleted

[Bigsyke]

If usually the ES only allows rotation on 1 axis, shouldnt the metal casing be rotating around the actual bolt? I would think as long as you use antiseize you shouldnt have too much of a binding issue.

I see rubber as more of an issue when the bolt seizes, such as the LCA. Those were torn because the bolt was seized to the casing, and the up/down movement was binding in the rubber.

I do reccommend ES LCA bushings, they work great.

[samms95s14se]

Originally Posted by mike13

excellent question... which i wish someone had the answer to. Mine are the same way, with the pillowball end cocked over to one side. My alignment tech said not worry about it, but i still do.
Anyone know if this creates a problem?

Here is what I posted a year ago to someone with the same problem...

I noticed when I installed mine that when the wheels are off of the ground the hem joint is even -[]- but when the tires are on the ground the hem joint is slanted -//-. It should be even when the tires are on the ground so there is an even amount of travel within the hem joint for flexing?
What I did is just look at the way they were leaning -\\- and then jack up the rear and turn the hem joint the oppisite way -//- then retighten them and lower the car back down and they now are straight -||-!!

[racepar1]

OK it's time for me to come in and clear up some shit here.

First off energy suspension has updated their design since 2004 (when this thread was started) and their tension rod bushings no longer crack control arms. They used to be soild one-piece bushings, which caused a lot of bind and cracked arms. Now they are a 3-piece design and work much better. Never buy solid urethane bushings for the tension rods no matter who makes them.

Second for the entire rest of the suspension urethane works ok. Not perfect, but ok. I have seen some rear arms break i think due to bushing bind though(a RUCA and a toe arm). I personally have urethane FLCA, RLCA, and rear upright bushings on my car still and I am happy with them. The key to urethane bushings is to keep them well lubed at all times. I installed zerk fittings on mine so that I can easily lube my bushings whenever I want. I HIGHLY reccomend that anyone installing urethane bushings does the zerk fittings. The urethane bushings seem to lose lube quickly (a couple months) and when they do they bind like hell. As long as my bushings are lubed I can compress my suspension all the way up with the shock dis-connected.

Third I would not reccomend the nismo bushings for any of the suspension arms. For subframes and mounts they are fine, but not for a suspension arm. The design of the nismo bushings inherently has more bind. The inner sleeve, bushing, and outer sleeve are all glued together. This means that for the suspension to move the bushing rubber has to twist. On top of that the nismo ones are a higher durometer rubber so they are even harder to witst then the stock ones. At least with a urethane bushing you have one free axis of movement. Anyone who does have the nismo or stock bushings in their arms please be sure to tighten all the suspension arms with the car on the ground. This will ensure that the bushing is in it's normal position at ride heighth and help eliminate some bind. With urethane bushings that is not necessary though.

[singlecamslam]

racepar what do you think about after tension rods like spl? they use spherical bearings.

[Hywarp161]

So do the 2 piece bushings from ES still have this problem?

[ixfxi]

Originally Posted by racepar1

Third I would not reccomend the nismo bushings for any of the suspension arms. For subframes and mounts they are fine, but not for a suspension arm. The design of the nismo bushings inherently has more bind. The inner sleeve, bushing, and outer sleeve are all glued together. This means that for the suspension to move the bushing rubber has to twist. On top of that the nismo ones are a higher durometer rubber so they are even harder to witst then the stock ones. At least with a urethane bushing you have one free axis of movement. Anyone who does have the nismo or stock bushings in their arms please be sure to tighten all the suspension arms with the car on the ground. This will ensure that the bushing is in it's normal position at ride heighth and help eliminate some bind. With urethane bushings that is not necessary though.

aron, isnt that the point of a bushing? its supposed to flex. its designed to flex. thats how the factory bushings work, the nismo bushings are no different.. just stiffer.

any pics of how you installed grease fittings in your arms? ide like to see how the grease goes from the outside to the inside shaft that sits on the bushing.

[ixfxi]

Originally Posted by CrimsonRockett

Since I'm in the process of ordering Nismo bushings myself for the spare subframe I have, I managed to get these numbers from a worker @ Nissan.

NISMO SUBFRAME BUSHINGS
PT # 55400-RS590

NISMO REAR AXLE&LOWER CONTROL ARM LINK
PT# 55157-RS580

NISMO REAR SPINDLE BUSHING
PT# 55157-RS521

okay big ballers... here are the part numbers ive managed to find:

55157-RS580 - RUCA, Traction & Toe Arms - 6 per car (3 per side)
55045-RS580 - RLCA - 4 per car (2 per side)
55157-RS521 - Spindle Bushings (for RUCA & Traction) - 4 per car (2 per side)
55152-RS520 - Spindle Bushings (Toe) - 2 per car (1 per side)

Subframe:
55440-RS520 - Front Subframe (2 needed)
55442-RS520 - Rear Subframe (2 needed)

Front LCA:
54535-RS520 - 2 per car

what a pain in the ass, so many fucking different part numbers.... and allergies dont help.

[CrimsonRockett]

Awesome.

My plan is, since I have this spare subframe, throw on ES bushings on one, Nismo bushings on the other.

Reading only does so much for me. Actually driving a car myself with different bushings allows me to decide for myself what I really want.

Greasing isn't really a problem to me since I don't drive the car often and after a certain point, I'll need something to work on anyway.

Hah.

[Howard92884]

Originally Posted by ixfxi

aron, isnt that the point of a bushing? its supposed to flex. its designed to flex. thats how the factory bushings work, the nismo bushings are no different.. just stiffer.

any pics of how you installed grease fittings in your arms? ide like to see how the grease goes from the outside to the inside shaft that sits on the bushing.

I would also like to see how you did these grease zerks.

[Bigsyke]

dont you just drill/tap?

Take it even further by making a passage around the whole bushing in the center, chamfer/deburr the edges, and installing the zerk. This way your bushing gets a full 360 of grease, and its also like a reserve.

[racepar1]

Originally Posted by ixfxi

aron, isnt that the point of a bushing? its supposed to flex. its designed to flex. thats how the factory bushings work, the nismo bushings are no different.. just stiffer.

The factory bushings are designed to flex, but it is restrictive to motion because of the design. A urethane bushing that is well greased will flex some and has one axis with very little restriction. I feel that is a better option as it reduces the bind in the suspension some. Bearings are always better, but are also very expensive.

I would say:

bearings > urethane > stock > nismo

The stock and the nismo are pretty close though because the nismo bushings lessen bushing flex in bad directions as well as good ones.

any pics of how you installed grease fittings in your arms? ide like to see how the grease goes from the outside to the inside shaft that sits on the bushing.

I have some pics at home.

Originally Posted by Bigsyke

dont you just drill/tap?

Take it even further by making a passage around the whole bushing in the center, chamfer/deburr the edges, and installing the zerk. This way your bushing gets a full 360 of grease, and its also like a reserve.

I did it the quick way and it works alright. I just drilled and tapped. If I had it to do over again though I would spend more time chamfering the holes and I would use a dremel to make a spiral groove inside the bushing to distribute the grease better.

[az_240]

Originally Posted by INeedNewTires

Money is always 'an object'... I about choked when i had to drop the 300 on the one pair of bushings i got. but after talking to Kuah he said that one is very important because of the S14 having a greater angle on the rear shocks than the Z32. The other spherical's i just cant justify because of the cost. Got the whole rear bushing set for $60 which is less than half the cost of 1 pair if bushings from SPL. Dont get me wrong SPL is the shit and i know those would be the best route but i'm going to try this out and post up how it goes.

I currently have this z32 rear upright setup minus the spherical shock mount bushing on my s14.


I might have to shave a little off the upright.... the rear shock is hitting it slightly.

I've been looking for a cheaper alternative for that shock mount bushing but cannot find anything other than SPL's which is rape. Sadly it looks like I will have to eventually bend over and just take it.



As for the tension rod bushings I have experience with nismo's, ES, and the SPL rods. Nismos are hands down the BEST for daily driving only because they don't rattle your teeth out and still stiffen everything up a good amount.

Just be sure to get them pressed in correctly.... with the arrow pointing toward the back of the car. ALSO be sure to tighten the tension rod with the car on the ground to avoid tearing them up.

ES requires too much greasing and the spherical rods are too much for my kidneys

[cdlong]

Originally Posted by Hywarp161

So do the 2 piece bushings from ES still have this problem?

oh jesus. these are just from this page.

Originally Posted by racepar1

First off energy suspension has updated their design since 2004 (when this thread was started) and their tension rod bushings no longer crack control arms.

Originally Posted by orion::S14

The new T/C rod bushing are perfectly fine. They realized there was a problem, redesigned them, and they now allow the flex that's needed so your front LCA won't crack.

they are three piece by the way.

[water]

Originally Posted by az_240

I currently have this z32 rear upright setup minus the spherical shock mount bushing on my s14.


I might have to shave a little off the upright.... the rear shock is hitting it slightly.

I've been looking for a cheaper alternative for that shock mount bushing but cannot find anything other than SPL's which is rape. Sadly it looks like I will have to eventually bend over and just take it.

I am in the same boat. I was trying to hold off on these bushings but after 6 months of driving around with stock z32 knuckle bushings, they are ripped/torn and my rear suspension feels like shit. I may just go back to a stock knuckle and get stock lower mounts for the shocks b/c i hate dealing w/ bushings and those are such such ass rape at $300. The only thing holding me back is that i spent a lot of time pressing out the old knuckle bushings for ES bushings so i don't want it to all be for nothing. ehhhh

[Hywarp161]

[QUOTE=cdlong;2714289]oh jesus. these are just from this page.



Thanks, it was late and i may have missed a few posts. I have the 3 piece one's installed, i was just curious.

[ixfxi]

Originally Posted by CrimsonRockett

Awesome.

My plan is, since I have this spare subframe, throw on ES bushings on one, Nismo bushings on the other.

Reading only does so much for me. Actually driving a car myself with different bushings allows me to decide for myself what I really want.

Greasing isn't really a problem to me since I don't drive the car often and after a certain point, I'll need something to work on anyway.

Hah.

I'm thinking the same thing, it would be interesting to have an S15 subframe with all solid components and then an s13 subframe with all nismo bushings. the problem is, i'de rather not have shit sitting around not getting used taking up precious space in my garage. but yeah, like you ide like to judge for myself.

Originally Posted by racepar1

The factory bushings are designed to flex, but it is restrictive to motion because of the design. A urethane bushing that is well greased will flex some and has one axis with very little restriction. I feel that is a better option as it reduces the bind in the suspension some. Bearings are always better, but are also very expensive.

I would say:

bearings > urethane > stock > nismo

The stock and the nismo are pretty close though because the nismo bushings lessen bushing flex in bad directions as well as good ones.

i disagree mostly with you're view because you're saying that the factory-style bushings (oe or nismo, doesnt matter) are restrictive - this is the point of the bushing, it not only acts as an insulator but also will spring back the suspension arms back into their normal position. I dont see this as a problem at all. they're part of the suspension and they work as intended.

by the way, being that there are so many different part numbers for the same sized bushing (as i listed above), it would make sense that the difference is in the durometer of the bushings.. that some bushings in the arms or spindles should flex less while others should flex more.


here is a question for the pros... is it possible to use s13 rear shocks on Z32 rear spindles if you press in that metal stud that secures the s13 shock? that would be very trick. unfortunately, the only z32 spindles ive seen on s13s also use z32 shocks.

[xawax]

i just installed the ES 3-pc tension rod bushings in my stock tension rods. i am very happy with the difference it made in the ride of my 89' hatch. a few days earlier i switched to new agx's w/teins and the tension rod bushing made more of a difference in the ride than the springs and struts.

after this thread popped up i inspected the angle/bind on the bushings with the car on the ground and it was centered and didn't look like it was under any stress.

my guess is that on excessivly lowered cars, the geometry is already in a "stressed" setting and then when you hit a mean dip on the freeway, it gets pushed too far and something has to give. i would say even the old design bushings would not be a problem unless you are sitting on the ground, tuckin' rim.

[projectRDM]

Mike, you cannot use the S13 stud in the Z32 upright without significant modification, IE welding a portion of aluminum into the upright then drilling/tapping for the stud at the correct angle. This would eliminate the need to use Z32 shocks in the rear but I've never met anyone willing to make the effort. The angle alone is your main concern as it would need to be precisely set up to match the S13 upright under both full load and unsprung load. Since the Z32 upright already sits at an angle it'd be hard to get it perfect. The spherical bearing in place of the bushing is the more ideal situation all around, you just have to use Z32 shocks. Some people don't like going that route since the Z is heavier and therefore the shocks are a different preload, in that case you just go with coilovers and matching Z32 fork mounts.

As far as urethane bushings in the uprights, these don't wear near as bad when used with arms that have spherical bearings, as the arms do allow for more twist than a stock arm. The better setup would be spherical bearings at both ends, but the cost and ride comfort level are heavily effected. You're going the better route by using the Nismo bushings since they're still compliant to an OE level but with reduced flex.

[gsracer]

For the z32 rear spindle Why dont you just machine an aluminum rod down to size and drill a hole in the middle of it, then press it into the z32 spindle. no bushing ,solid mount. If you grease it up well it shouldnt bind, the rear suspension only moves so much.

[aznpoopy]

Originally Posted by xawax

my guess is that on excessivly lowered cars, the geometry is already in a "stressed" setting and then when you hit a mean dip on the freeway, it gets pushed too far and something has to give. i would say even the old design bushings would not be a problem unless you are sitting on the ground, tuckin' rim.

perhaps its an aggravating factor but i dont think that is quite correct.

the t/c rods are bolted directly to the LCA, but they do not move on the same axis as the LCA. the t/c rod bushing will be inevitably subject to a twisting motion as the LCA moves, even at a stock height. since poly bushings don't allow for much deformation, something will have to give.

[s13tilldeath*]

o shit..... ill be checking mine now....

[ixfxi]

Originally Posted by projectRDM

As far as urethane bushings in the uprights, these don't wear near as bad when used with arms that have spherical bearings, as the arms do allow for more twist than a stock arm. The better setup would be spherical bearings at both ends, but the cost and ride comfort level are heavily effected. You're going the better route by using the Nismo bushings since they're still compliant to an OE level but with reduced flex.

thanks russ. remember back in the day how we used to slot the RUCA and rear toe arm? thats how my s13 arms are! haha i dont hear about people doing that much anymore, but its worked fine for many many years now.

i am thinking if i pickup Z32 RUCA/toe arms, to slot them and then re-weld material with the new hole position, that way they're pre-slotted and reinforced. that, or i will have to compromise and run solid RUCA/toe., not that bad i dont think.

[projectRDM]

Originally Posted by ixfxi

thanks russ. remember back in the day how we used to slot the RUCA and rear toe arm? thats how my s13 arms are! haha i dont hear about people doing that much anymore, but its worked fine for many many years now.

i am thinking if i pickup Z32 RUCA/toe arms, to slot them and then re-weld material with the new hole position, that way they're pre-slotted and reinforced. that, or i will have to compromise and run solid RUCA/toe., not that bad i dont think.

I remember that shit. 1998 was all about it, when no one had even seen adjustable arms outside of the $500 Cuscos. If you're keeping OE fit just box in and weld up the existing arms and weld a concave washer to double up the hole end, that way you've got some surface area to crank on with deforming the arm or the bushing. Just make sure to keep using OE type shoulder bolts. I had some fool a few years ago bring me a Z32 to put coilovers on, for the life of me I could not compress the suspension enough. I finally realized they had replaced the bushings with Delrin and use threaded bolts, they were impacted so tight the arms could not move. It was tightened in the air so the suspension was preset to full droop. The traction arms were actually broken at the subframe end from the tension. We put new arms back on and I loosened the bolts down to OE torque, the car dropped like four inches. It didn't even need coilovers.

[ixfxi]

here we have it, pics showing the wear that occurs on the inside of the bushing. you can see wear marks on the shafts and chunking of polyurethane as it heats up from constant motion on the shaft.

edit: thats the rear LCA bushing.