Max boost pressure for methonal injection?

[2plus4plus0eq6]

Hey there,

I'm planning on running Methonal injection into my s14 sr20det. It still has the stock t28 on it with a fmic. I'm currently running 12psi on it. From what I've heard, Max boost on a t28 is like 15-16psi before it becomes inefficient. Therefore no point in increasing boost.

My real question is.. by increasing octane or lowing intercooler air temp, is it possible to increase the efficiency threshold of the Turbo?

I have an dsport article here on my dropbox you can see that they Methonal injected a s15 sr20det with 91 octane and increased the boost from 15.6 to 24.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jixvaapf6l...cle-pdf-42.pdf

I would assume both s14 and s15 Turbos are similar.

Thanks for the help

[jr_ss]

You cannot increase the max CFM a turbo can push by changing fuel. The higher boost you run the higher the air temps become. Outside of its efficiency island your pushing hot air. Methanol will help cool this down, but it is by no means a saving grace. If you want more power, you need a bigger turbo period.

I'm not saying you won't be able to make some more power, because you will be able to just by pushing the knock threshold back some with the meth. However, you aren't getting more air out of a maxed T28.

[2plus4plus0eq6]

I see what your saying. I pretty much need to watch my air/fuel ratio and play with the timing while I increase the boost?

[waxball88]

No he's saying you're wasting your time. Once you pass your compressors efficiency you arent going to make more power regardless of meth

[2plus4plus0eq6]

Originally Posted by waxball88

No he's saying you're wasting your time. Once you pass your compressors efficiency you arent going to make more power regardless of meth

Read what he typed again. He didn't say I wouldn't make more power. He said the Turbo wouldn't push anymore air and the air temp would go down. Did you even read the article?

[jr_ss]

It's likely that since the meth is cooling the air charge down more than just the intercooler, you will make some more power. However, at the same time, you've already maxed out the compressor, so you aren't going to make much more power. In the end, I think your gains are going to be negligible and ultimately a waste, as Waxball stated. Not to mention you run the risk of the turbo ingesting itself from over spinning it and possibly hurting more components on your setup.

[2plus4plus0eq6]

Originally Posted by jr_ss

It's likely that since the meth is cooling the air charge down more than just the intercooler, you will make some more power. However, at the same time, you've already maxed out the compressor, so you aren't going to make much more power. In the end, I think your gains are going to be negligible and ultimately a waste, as Waxball stated. Not to mention you run the risk of the turbo ingesting itself from over spinning it and possibly hurting more components on your setup.

If it's probably going to be a waste of time and I'll probably be maxing out my Turbo at 15 psi, how do you explain the massive power increase from the sr20 in the article? 24psi? I'm pretty sure they are over the efficiency for that Turbo.

I need some more opinions on this. How can you tell how much boost to increase safely? What things do they monitor? I'm thinking it's all done on the dyno.

Thanks to you both for your response.

[jr_ss]

I'd say most gains were the increase of higher octane rating and being able to change the amount of timing the engine was seeing. 24psi is a recipe for disaster on a T28 turbo. You do what you want, but I would never recommend that to anyone.

Take a look at the T28 compressor map if you don't believe that the turbo is way outside its efficiency islands at that pressure.

The comp map shows that at 24 psi you'd be running north of the 2.5 mark on the map. This happens to be well outside the efficiency islands. Your also spinning the turbo well over 150k rpms. Even at 20psi your still at the edge.

24+14.7/14.7= 2.63
20+14.7/14.7= 2.36



If you want more power reliably, up your turbo size and add meth.

[pjmrnolife1]

Can we open this topic up more and discuss water meth injection in general, stories and feedback from all engine types? Typical prices and results etc ? Subscribe for more info

[jr_ss]

Originally Posted by pjmrnolife1

Can we open this topic up more and discuss water meth injection in general, stories and feedback from all engine types? Typical prices and results etc ? Subscribe for more info

We already have a meth injection thread...

[DRFT180]

Originally Posted by 2plus4plus0eq6

Read what he typed again. He didn't say I wouldn't make more power. He said the Turbo wouldn't push anymore air and the air temp would go down. Did you even read the article?

Did you read the article? The car is equipped with an upgraded Tomei turbo, that has enough flow to produce 400+whp.

They were previously limited on power due to 91 octane. With the meth/water injection decreasing the air intake temps while also upping the octane level, they could safely turn up the boost and adjust timing to make more power.

I would say that by adding water/meth with a stock T28 that you'll see some results as long as you're able to adjust fuel and timing accordingly, but not on the level that the magazine saw. The turbo just doesn't flow that much.

Btw, I'm a big fan of water/meth injection and run an AEM kit on my car.

More discussions in this thread:
http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t...anol+injection

[2plus4plus0eq6]

Originally Posted by jr_ss

I'd say most gains were the increase of higher octane rating and being able to change the amount of timing the engine was seeing. 24psi is a recipe for disaster on a T28 turbo. You do what you want, but I would never recommend that to anyone.

Take a look at the T28 compressor map if you don't believe that the turbo is way outside its efficiency islands at that pressure.

Gains from increase in octane or increase in boost? They dyno'd it with and without Methonal both on 91. Octane didn't change.

Originally Posted by pjmrnolife1

Can we open this topic up more and discuss water meth injection in general, stories and feedback from all engine types? Typical prices and results etc ? Subscribe for more info

The same stuff going on in the thread can be generally used for all engines but if you don't mind, since I started the thread, I'd like to keep it aimed for my specific type of engine. You can start a new thread and post a link for this setup in that thread.

[2plus4plus0eq6]

Originally Posted by DRFT180

Did you read the article? The car is equipped with an upgraded Tomei turbo, that has enough flow to produce 400+whp.

They were previously limited on power due to 91 octane. With the meth/water injection decreasing the air intake temps while also upping the octane level, they could safely turn up the boost and adjust timing to make more power.

I would say that by adding water/meth with a stock T28 that you'll see some results as long as you're able to adjust fuel and timing accordingly, but not on the level that the magazine saw. The turbo just doesn't flow that much.

Btw, I'm a big fan of water/meth injection and run an AEM kit on my car.

More discussions in this thread:
http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t...anol+injection

I see what you're saying. I don't imagine boosting to 24psi, but getting to 17 or 18 on a t28 would be a dream. Safely of course. The aem kit seems good. The snow performance stage 2 seems like a really good bang for your Buck kit

[jr_ss]

Originally Posted by 2plus4plus0eq6

Gains from increase in octane or increase in boost? They dyno'd it with and without Methonal both on 91. Octane didn't change.

Perhaps you should research water/meth injection a little bit. The alcohol in meth increases the octane rating. How much is dependent on how much meth you're injecting.

[2plus4plus0eq6]

Originally Posted by jr_ss

Perhaps you should research water/meth injection a little bit. The alcohol in meth increases the octane rating. How much is dependent on how much meth you're injecting.

I'll take your advice. I'm currently running 94 pump gas. If I add 50/50 water to Meth, how much octane is it adding?

[anti tyler]

Originally Posted by 2plus4plus0eq6

I'll take your advice. I'm currently running 94 pump gas. If I add 50/50 water to Meth, how much octane is it adding?

I'm not a big meth informant. But I think he was trying to say, depending upon the amount of alcohol (fuel) is in the Meth, that will up your octane rating. Telling us that your mixture is 50/50 meth/water doesn't tell us what your meth/alcohol mixture is.

Will water injection increase my horsepower?
Yes, but not directly. Water injection works to eliminate detonation, also known as knock. The big gains come from the ability to increase boost as well as the full ignition advance allowed by the ECU when it does not detect knock. While the cooling of the intake charge will produce some power increases, those increases are cancelled by the charge space occupied by the water vapor. In other words, there is slightly less room for air and fuel. However, by using up to 50 percent alcohol with the water, additional cooling takes place before the turbo, and the alcohol works as a fuel in the charge. This results in an increase in power.


http://www.enginerunup.com/

The whole purpose of the alcohol in the spray is to turn the "water" into a fuel charge, instead of being just water vapor which would not cause any increase in power because the water would dull down the original mixture of fuel being pressurized in the cylinder. BUT because the alcohol is being introduced with the water, it acts as if it was injecting cooler more dense gasoline.

[2plus4plus0eq6]

Originally Posted by anti tyler

I'm not a big meth informant. But I think he was trying to say, depending upon the amount of alcohol (fuel) is in the Meth, that will up your octane rating. Telling us that your mixture is 50/50 meth/water doesn't tell us what your meth/alcohol mixture is.

Holy shit.. so there's different levels of alcohol in different Meths? I Googled some stuff but from my understanding they were all essentially the same. I was planning on using methyl hydrate from home depot or something. From what I read, it's the exact same as methonal. Just different names. I wouldn't have a clue how much alcohol that would have and even compare to other brands.

Sorry guys for being noobish. Im learning stuff here. Thanks for all the feedback.

[Tom N]

You can up the efficiency of the turbo by using water injection pre-turbo.
But I wouldn't. The best way to make power is a quality injection system that can safely inject 100% meth a little before the throttle body. Meth is typically 113 octane but that is less important that is cooling effect and burn rate. I'm not a fan of 50/50 water meth. Waste IMO.
Meth will allow you to run far more boost and timing all while running 93 pump has in the tank.
www.Alkycontrol.com is the best kit. Julio runs his own product in his 8.50 pump gas mustang as well as other personal cars for the last 15+ years. His kits are 100% methanol compatible and he recommends running 100% methanol.
VP M5 is the methanol to use.

[anti tyler]

Originally Posted by 2plus4plus0eq6

Holy shit.. so there's different levels of alcohol in different Meths? I Googled some stuff but from my understanding they were all essentially the same. I was planning on using methyl hydrate from home depot or something. From what I read, it's the exact same as methonal. Just different names. I wouldn't have a clue how much alcohol that would have and even compare to other brands.

Sorry guys for being noobish. Im learning stuff here. Thanks for all the feedback.

As I said I'm not a "meth head" I don't know much about it, but surely there are different levels of meth additives.

Not just a standard mixture. I'm almost positive like octane ratings of fuel, you can up, and up, and up, a mixture of meth/water to boost your HP even more and more.

[jr_ss]

50/50 is just you mixture ratio. What is actually being injected into you motor via the nozzle is what is going to effect your octane rating. Like I said, do some research as I do not have all the answers and do not run a meth injection system. Tom N has more knowledge than me on the matter.

[Tom N]

For the most part methanol is all the same aside from some blends being oxygenated and also having lubricant added in it. VP M5 is oxygenated methanol with lubricant all ready in it.
VP M1 is just strait methanol like southern racing methanol and other brands of strait methanol.
Mixing meth with water is a waste. For one they don't mix. Only reason some alcohol injection system suggest it is their crap pumps and cheap push lock lines aren't suited for pure methanol. Get a good system and run pure methanol. The results are well worth it.

>>>> www.alkycontrol.com Julio will answer any question you have.

[2plus4plus0eq6]

Originally Posted by Tom N

For the most part methanol is all the same aside from some blends being oxygenated and also having lubricant added in it. VP M5 is oxygenated methanol with lubricant all ready in it.
VP M1 is just strait methanol like southern racing methanol and other brands of strait methanol.
Mixing meth with water is a waste. For one they don't mix. Only reason some alcohol injection system suggest it is their crap pumps and cheap push lock lines aren't suited for pure methanol. Get a good system and run pure methanol. The results are well worth it.

>>>> www.alkycontrol.com Julio will answer any question you have.

Thanks. I'll definitely take a look at that kit you suggested. What are your thoughts on the methyl hydrate I was thinking about or do the VP ones really make differences in different situations? Its dirt cheap to buy here

[Tom N]

Originally Posted by 2plus4plus0eq6

Thanks. I'll definitely take a look at that kit you suggested. What are your thoughts on the methyl hydrate I was thinking about or do the VP ones really make differences in different situations? Its dirt cheap to buy here

I run VP M5 only. A 5 gallon can will last you a long time. The cost is so low when you consider how long it lasts. For me a can last a good 3 months and the car is raced just about every weekend and driven daily ( when its not down ) You only use the meth when you are boosting. Mine comes on at 7psi and is flowing full out by 12psi. I use a progressive controller which I recommend using.
In short I would just use regular methanol. I can get a 5 gallon can of strait methanol for $35

[2plus4plus0eq6]

Originally Posted by Tom N

I run VP M5 only. A 5 gallon can will last you a long time. The cost is so low when you consider how long it lasts. For me a can last a good 3 months and the car is raced just about every weekend and driven daily ( when its not down ) You only use the meth when you are boosting. Mine comes on at 7psi and is flowing full out by 12psi. I use a progressive controller which I recommend using.
In short I would just use regular methanol. I can get a 5 gallon can of strait methanol for $35

I was definitely going to get a progressive controller no matter what kit it was. The VP meth does sound pretty cheap. You know roughly how much the alkycontrol kits would cost?

Here is a link I found on the site. Lots of useful information:
http://www.alkycontrol.com/faq/acfaqs.html

EDITED: I see they sell them from 500-800 on ebay. Home depot sells 3.78L (which is think is close to a gallon) for $10.97 CAD. It is 99.9% pure methanol. I think thats the cheapest I've seen