The Sr20/Sr22vet thread

[brndck]

I've run into a weird issue. My engine builder is starting on a VE-t build for one of their customers. The customer provided them with a brand new VE head. The head does not have valve seats in it. I was under the impression that the valve seats were part of the head, not pressed in (like old L-series Datsun engines), but apparently that's not the case?

does anyone happen to have access to FAST or have a part number for VE head valve seats???

[LuckyX2]

So I started modifying my DET fuel rail and then thought about just using the P12 rail. It has those dumb two bolt flanges for the input and fpr but if I remove those, I'm left with two 11mm holes. 11mm just happens to be perfect to tap for 1/4" NPT. I could put two NPT fittings on the stock rail and then run my regular Tomei remote fpr setup I had. My one concern is that the stock fuel rail is weirdly flat. I'm wondering if that will affect flow at all. I'm thinking there might not be enough of a fuel "buffer" in the stock rail.

[LuckyX2]

Update: The Cometic 3175v-16s I mentioned before don't work. They have an ID that's very slightly too large. Were even listed as P12 seals from the seller I found...

Guess I'm going to eBay.uk and looking for an OEM replacement brand.

[LuckyX2]

Alright, so I wound up calling Andreas Miko in Miami haha. Felt a bit odd calling a stranger for car part advice but he gave me a lead. He said he thinks the GA16 engine from the Sentra had the same valve seals as the P12 20v.

Attached is FSM measurements of the valves. So at least I know they're 5.5mm, that's a start.

I'm gonna go ahead and order some. Rockauto has a bunch when I put in a 1995 1.6L Sentra. ENGINETECH S531V looks like the best one, that one is specifically listed as being made of viton, the others say rubber or nothing. Plus a pack of 20 is only $8.80

[LuckyX2]

I can finally confirm that SR20DET single valve springs work with stock P12 retainers/seats.
Also, the ENGINETECH S531V valve seals worked too.

[TheRealSy90]

Originally Posted by LuckyX2

I can finally confirm that SR20DET single valve springs work with stock P12 retainers/seats.
Also, the ENGINETECH S531V valve seals worked too.

What's wrong with the factory p12 springs? A you went to oem det springs or aftermarket springs?

[LuckyX2]

Originally Posted by insa

Thanks for the update and spring info

Head and overall setup look great Hope you get to drive it soon.

Sure, sorry it took a while. Thanks, I hope so too. Aiming to dyno tune by the end of August.

Originally Posted by TheRealSy90

What's wrong with the factory p12 springs? A you went to oem det springs or aftermarket springs?

Nothing is wrong with them, I just wanted stiffer for higher RPM. Same reason why people do springs on DET heads.

I used Brian Crower BC1200 springs:
Spring Pressure: BC1200 Seat: 1.550" @ 90 lbs / Open: 1.025" @ 220 lbs

[hanzbrady]

Originally Posted by LuckyX2

Sure, sorry it took a while. Thanks, I hope so too. Aiming to dyno tune by the end of August.



Nothing is wrong with them, I just wanted stiffer for higher RPM. Same reason why people do springs on DET heads.

I used Brian Crower BC1200 springs:
Spring Pressure: BC1200 Seat: 1.550" @ 90 lbs / Open: 1.025" @ 220 lbs

The springs you chose aren't exactly ideal for high rpm VVL, what cams and rev limit are you looking for? We usually recommend 123lbs dual Supertechs on any VVL turbo build we do.

[LuckyX2]

And here's some pics of my assembled head

[insa]

Thanks for the update and spring info

Head and overall setup look great Hope you get to drive it soon.

[TheRealSy90]

Do they not offer aftermarket springs specific for p12?


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[LuckyX2]

Originally Posted by hanzbrady

The springs you chose aren't exactly ideal for high rpm VVL, what cams and rev limit are you looking for? We usually recommend 123lbs dual Supertechs on any VVL turbo build we do.

I think you're confusing the P11 head (which is what you guys at Mazworx seem to use) with my P12 head. The P12 valve stems are 0.5mm thinner than DET/P11's 6mm stems, so I can't use the dual spring retainers you're talking about without having retainers custom made. Supertech doesn't make P12 retainers, single or dual. Unless Honda B series engines happen to have the same spring size, they're also 5.5mm stem valves. On your own listing for Supertech springs it says: "This valvetrain kit is for the SR20VE heads except the 20V" I have the 20v (P12).

Besides, I had the 123lb dual springs on my DET and they were way too rough on my head. So much pressure, they'd chew through shims and I shattered two rocker arms too. I don't want to deal with that again.

My goal is 9k and these springs will get me there with my SR16VE N1 cams.
Redline on the stock SR16VE N1 is 8600rpm, and these springs are like 30% stiffer. Also, P12 valves are lighter than P11 valves, meaning I don't need as much spring pressure to hit the same rpm.

Originally Posted by TheRealSy90

Do they not offer aftermarket springs specific for p12?


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Nope, everything is listed as either DET or P11 VE, no love for the P12 since that's a rarer swap. Thankfully DET springs work.

[LuckyX2]

Fun Fact: The P12 oil pump collar spacer is actually one piece with the timing chain gear on it. So I can't use the spacer from it like I could with the P11 which is two pieces.

So I'll be running the DET spacer with the Mazworx spacer added on, VE pump and VE pulley.

[claaasssiiiccc21]

Dumb but important question:

Those of you still running heater cores, which coolant line do you connect to the top/bottom heater core line? I have the hardline coming out of the block going to the bottom heater core fitting then I have the top heater core line going to the inner fitting on the Mazworx VE adapter water neck. Not sure if this is right as I've had the steel fitting that is pushed into the block come out when hot... assuming I have something dicked up here.

Thanks!

[LuckyX2]

It shouldn't matter, right? I mean, it will flow through either direction.

But I believe the OEM setup has the line from the thermostat on the block going to the lower heater core line and the line from the waterneck on the head going to the upper heater core line.

Also, I found another P12 difference. The timing marks on the pulley aren't the typical -5,0,5,15,20 BTDC, there's actually only 4 marks, which appear to be -5,5,15,20 BTDC since there is a gap where I would expect 0 to be marked.

[LuckyX2]

Correction, I busted out my OEM lines to check this:


Water neck and thermostat outside (further from block) goes to the upper line. Inner thermostat fitting goes to the lower line.

So on a VE waterneck adapter, one port should go to the outer thermostat and one to the upper heater core line.

[TheRealSy90]

So after all this P12 nonsense it appears to me that the P11 head is the better one to use for a VVL swap? lol.

[Busta]

All depends what better for you is. P11 is cheaper, easier to find and more documented. P12 is more recent would be best though because of improved cooling flow around the head; they come with the p12 cas that many use (400$) and single solenoid to switch the vvl that one can use and clears the firewall. The cams are decent too improving duration compared to p11 but the head costs double the money so is it really worth it?? Rhd japan sells brand New p12 cores for like 1200 I say that aint too bad cause many end up changing cams,valves and springs anyways. The killing point is rocker arms costing about 200$ new a pop (x8) if one cant find a used set; good luck with that!

For what this changes availability/money wise p11 end up being much more used than p12

[LuckyX2]

Originally Posted by TheRealSy90

So after all this P12 nonsense it appears to me that the P11 head is the better one to use for a VVL swap? lol.

Nope, the P12 head is better. Flows better, has better cooling and if you're keeping the stock cams, the P12 cams are better than the P11 cams (N1s are better than both). P12 will also rev higher since it has lighter valves. I'm just documenting the differences since the P12 swap is less common. Lots of little differences like valve size, gaskets, timing marks, one piece oil pump collar but nothing difficult/expensive to work around, especially now that I've laid it out for everyone with part numbers for the valve seals, valve springs etc.

It's also incorrect to say the P12 is the more expensive swap, like most people think. Let me break it down. This is based on the current eBay price of $750 for whole P11 and $1500 for a whole P12 with 6 speed trans and all accessories.

I am not including parts that both will need in this comparison like the oil pickup, water neck, etc.

P11:
+$750
+$300 for solenoid relocation and lines/fittings
+$300 for hall sensor or P12 CAS
+$450 for N1 cams
-$150 selling the P11 cams (undesirable/hard sell)
Total: $1650 with N1 cams, $1350 with stock cams

P12:
+$1500
+$450 for N1 cams
-$300 selling P12 cams (P11 guys will buy P12 cams, this is what mine sold for)
-$500 selling 6 speed trans (Sentra guys with 5 speeds or autos desire this swap)
Total: $1150 with N1 cams, $1000 with stock cams

There's more you can part out of the P12 and sell to P11 guys like the pistons and stuff, but I think you get the general idea. The P12 already having the right CAS and not needing to relocate the solenoid helps a lot. Plus I don't like the idea of solenoid relocation anyway, a bunch of extra lines to crowd up the bay and potentially leak.

[Busta]

Props Lucky if your documenting all the info for future p12 swappers; never enough info on forums and you have to search here and there to gather it all. Now I like to see how you made it more affordable in the end selling stuff but I didnt quite count in that manner cause till you get the stuff sold youre at lost. Good stuff goin on here for shure cant wait to jump on mine

[Zolvovo]

Originally Posted by LuckyX2

It's also incorrect to say the P12 is the more expensive swap, like most people think. Let me break it down.

P11:
+$750
+$300 for solenoid relocation and lines/fittings
+$300 for hall sensor or P12 CAS
+$450 for N1 cams
-$150 selling the P11 cams (undesirable/hard sell)
Total: $1650 with N1 cams, $1350 with stock cams

P12:
+$1500
+$450 for N1 cams
-$300 selling P12 cams (P11 guys will buy P12 cams, this is what mine sold for)
-$500 selling 6 speed trans (Sentra guys with 5 speeds or autos desire this swap)
Total: $1150 with N1 cams, $1000 with stock cams

for the record sentra guys have no use for the 6spd aside from the bellhousing which can be had from gspec for $300

amazing you got $300 for those cams. never heard of any p11 guy using or wanting them

check the specs

http://www.sr20forum.com/sr20ve-sr16...12-cams-2.html

[TheRealSy90]

So it's not necessary to update the valvetrain like you are doing with the P12 head? If it can already rev higher than p11 why upgrade the internals? You're already at a way higher potential than the det head.


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[LuckyX2]

Originally Posted by TheRealSy90

So it's not necessary to update the valvetrain like you are doing with the P12 head? If it can already rev higher than p11 why upgrade the internals? You're already at a way higher potential than the det head.

This is a silly statement. Was it necessary for me to port the head either? No, but it's better. Was it necessary for me to put an EFR on it? No, I could have spent half the money and gone with a Garrett like most people but the EFR is better.

I'm not in this for necessary, I'm in this for performance. So when I can get better valve springs for a measly $80 and guarantee I'm not going to have valve float, I'm gonna do it.

Personally, I'd feel safe taking a stock P11 to 7.5-8k, a stock P12 to 8-8.5k and either with springs to 9k+. I'll be setting my rev limiter to 9k, so I want that extra safety.

[LuckyX2]

Even if you sell nothing, they're about the same cost anyway, because of needing to buy the relocation and CAS/Hall sensor.

My P12 cams sold in a little over a week for $300 and I haven't listed the trans yet but I do know that Sentra guys want them, so it should sell. Biggest problem selling a trans is the shipping though.

[TheRealSy90]

I get you. And EFR is definitely the better choice. I guess my only thought is there's debate wether the stiffer springs are better or actually too stiff and might cause abnormal wear. Who knows.

As far as rpm range i'd probably add a thousand to each of those lol. Hell a det is fine at 7,5.

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[LuckyX2]

Originally Posted by TheRealSy90

I guess my only thought is there's debate wether the stiffer springs are better or actually too stiff and might cause abnormal wear. Who knows.

As far as rpm range i'd probably add a thousand to each of those lol. Hell a det is fine at 7,5.

I didn't go super stiff. I think stock springs are like 65lbs and these are 90lbs? It's not like I'm running the 123lb supertechs or something.

And sorry, but a stock P12 starts to float at 8200rpm according to MotoIQ.
http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticl...stoppable.aspx

I imagine a P11 probably starts to float 250-500rpm earlier with the heavier valves. I wouldn't take either to 9k without aftermarket springs.

Hey Busta, any more progress on your 7163 build? Not much info out there. As far as I know, you're the only one in Canada with one on an SR, Def and I are the only ones in America and then there are two in Australia.

[Busta]

Something ive been wondering as to what to expect hood to valvecover clearance wise with the p12 one I measured almost 1 inch taller at the fwd.rh side compared to p11. Is the p12 head less tall by any chance? I dont think it is. Thing is with the hood vents I have with the hood i have my det valvecover has about nill clearance on that side

[Yellow4g63]

It's all how you look at it really. Which can you get parts easier for? It's hell finding the valve components for the p12 head. Even tho you can swap it out for P11 stuff.

[LuckyX2]

Originally Posted by Busta

Something ive been wondering as to what to expect hood to valvecover clearance wise with the p12 one I measured almost 1 inch taller at the fwd.rh side compared to p11. Is the p12 head less tall by any chance? I dont think it is. Thing is with the hood vents I have with the hood i have my det valvecover has about nill clearance on that side

If you have clearance issues, you could always remove the washers/shims from the mount and extend the crossmember slots so it sits lower. I did that in mine anyway just for the lower CG.

Originally Posted by Yellow4g63

It's all how you look at it really. Which can you get parts easier for? It's hell finding the valve components for the p12 head. Even tho you can swap it out for P11 stuff.

Well we now know the valve seal and spring info and the gaskets were easy to find before. I think rocker arms are the same between P11 and P12.

Its the valves I'm worried about. If I ever bend a valve, I'm going to have to figure something out because there's no aftermarket valves as far as I'm aware. So either I'd have to machine the guides up to 6mm and use P11/DET valves, get custom 5.5mm valves from Supertech or look into the possibility of using valves from another engine with 5.5mm stem valves like a B series. Slim chance of finding something the same dimensions though.

[Yellow4g63]

Originally Posted by LuckyX2

If you have clearance issues, you could always remove the washers/shims from the mount and extend the crossmember slots so it sits lower. I did that in mine anyway just for the lower CG.



Well we now know the valve seal and spring info and the gaskets were easy to find before. I think rocker arms are the same between P11 and P12.

Its the valves I'm worried about. If I ever bend a valve, I'm going to have to figure something out because there's no aftermarket valves as far as I'm aware. So either I'd have to machine the guides up to 6mm and use P11/DET valves, get custom 5.5mm valves from Supertech or look into the possibility of using valves from another engine with 5.5mm stem valves like a B series. Slim chance of finding something the same dimensions though.

My understanding is that you use the p11 guides if you use the p11 valves. One of the NZ guys I talked to switches over any 20v he gets to the p11 stuff. He had some bad experiences with the p12 valves.