The Sr20/Sr22vet thread

[S13VE]

The question is more about which cams as I was intending on just using the stock cams from the head.

[S13VE]

Oh and are people putting all new valves in both heads or just using stock?

With P11 heads, Supertech springs OK with standard retainers or everyone doing Titanium retainers as well?

[Rb26kouki]

Originally Posted by S13VE

The question is more about which cams as I was intending on just using the stock cams from the head.

P11 or SR16 both good for your goals

[Rb26kouki]

Originally Posted by S13VE

Oh and are people putting all new valves in both heads or just using stock?

With P11 heads, Supertech springs OK with standard retainers or everyone doing Titanium retainers as well?

Get 93lbs springs & ti retainers

[S13VE]

I can get sr16 cams as well, but that low lobe intake duration is super low at 200.

I read mixed things about Ti retainers wearing fast and I specifically warned off supertech ve springs due to wear.

So if I can get an sr16, standard sr20ve (p11) or 20v (p12) head... What do I do lol

[RalliartRsX]

Originally Posted by S13VE

The question is more about which cams as I was intending on just using the stock cams from the head.

Originally Posted by S13VE

Oh and are people putting all new valves in both heads or just using stock?

With P11 heads, Supertech springs OK with standard retainers or everyone doing Titanium retainers as well?

Originally Posted by S13VE

I can get sr16 cams as well, but that low lobe intake duration is super low at 200.

I read mixed things about Ti retainers wearing fast and I specifically warned off supertech ve springs due to wear.

So if I can get an sr16, standard sr20ve (p11) or 20v (p12) head... What do I do lol

Note: Overlap is not your best friend for turbo engines below 700-800 BHP.

1) P11 or P12 cams are best for a proper power band.
- N1 cams have HUGE overlap. Meaning you need a huge turbine to make it even work well without taking out a ton of overlap and overall destroying driveability below 6000 RPM
- Sr16VE non N1 cams low lobes have the lowest lift of all the cams. Off boost/Off VVL, they are really unimpressive. The high lobes slot between the P12 and P11. However, the powerband is not "great"

2) If trackday, put a set of Supertech Inconel/Stainless valves. the exhaust ports are "tiny" so if you can upsize those, you will be in business

3) Springs and retainers. No need for a 123lb seat pressure. In all honesty, even the 93lbs are "kinda" high but they work. 16VE cams have such a shallow ramp angle that they can be revved out to 7800-8000 without float.

Either way, read the thread and get what better suits your budget.

[S13VE]

OK so either head/cams is fine.

Are you saying leave springs and retainers stock? I thought springs at least were key to helping it rev.

I had looked at a full set of new valves, just for insurance, but I didn't realise a bigger valve was needed, I thought these heads flowed tons anyway?

[TheRealSy90]

Man, all this work for VE heads and only revving to 7800-8000 lol.

[RalliartRsX]

Originally Posted by TheRealSy90

Man, all this work for VE heads and only revving to 7800-8000 lol.

........I am referring to stock valvetrain in terms of valve float

[S13VE]

Naturally, Kelford is recommending 184ST, but they are a decent chunk of change.

Their Beehive springs are also premium price.

Anyine using the BC dual springs and retainers?

I wasn't aware people were going oversized valves, is that really needed given the lift and duration? Bearing in mind my power goal seems mild by comparison.

[hanzbrady]

Originally Posted by S13VE

Naturally, Kelford is recommending 184ST, but they are a decent chunk of change.

Their Beehive springs are also premium price.

Anyine using the BC dual springs and retainers?

I wasn't aware people were going oversized valves, is that really needed given the lift and duration? Bearing in mind my power goal seems mild by comparison.

You can use the Supertech dual stuff with the 184ST's that's what 90% of my customers run and it's a deadly setup.

As per the bigger valves, bigger valve = bigger amounts of air and more power. I've never seen a VE perform negatively with an oversized valve so I have no reason not to recommend them especially with how well these heads flow

Just be sure that you get the head ported to match. Blending the seat to the throat of the port is where you pick up most of the power and take advantage of the bigger valves.

[2_Liter_Turbo]

I just got my Kelford 184-STs and Beehive springs in today! I'm trying to decide if I really need the shimless valve setup or not. EFR7163 on E85 and road racing (no bouncing off the rev limiter here).

[S13VE]

I am hearing really mixed reviews about Supertech springs/retainers causing bad wear.

I've only run BCs and not for long enough to know if wear was an issue with those.

Maybe I'll just run the Kelford stuff then I can blame them if it wears

What's the shimless valve setup?

[Rb26kouki]

Originally Posted by 2_Liter_Turbo

I just got my Kelford 184-STs and Beehive springs in today! I'm trying to decide if I really need the shimless valve setup or not. EFR7163 on E85 and road racing (no bouncing off the rev limiter here).

Shimless FTMW!!!!

[hanzbrady]

Originally Posted by S13VE

I am hearing really mixed reviews about Supertech springs/retainers causing bad wear.

I've only run BCs and not for long enough to know if wear was an issue with those.

Maybe I'll just run the Kelford stuff then I can blame them if it wears

What's the shimless valve setup?

Well I mean I've seen customers use Supertech from 200HP to 2,000HP. I'd go out on a limb and say I trust their stuff.

The BC stuff is probably nice too, I've met Brian and we use their valve train in our shop car here at close to 2,000HP, I've just never run it on an VE setup.

I've also never used the Kelford stuff, generally speaking it's hard to go wrong running the cam manufacturer's springs and retainers since they're tested together.

Kelford being outside of the US kind of eliminates them from most people's shopping list, personally I like working with companies that can provide the best support so since Supertech and BC are domestic I'd favor them.

Shimless eliminates the shims that sit inside the retainers that can pop off at high RPM or by hitting the limiter. This just requires longer aftermarket valves and a competent machine shop and provides near infinite reliability.

[S13VE]

Oh I got the concept of shimless, just wasn't sure how it was acheived in this head as there's a few ways to go about it.

What Cams are you guys using in the US?

[hanzbrady]

Originally Posted by S13VE

Oh I got the concept of shimless, just wasn't sure how it was acheived in this head as there's a few ways to go about it.

What Cams are you guys using in the US?

184ST's are easily the best all around cam and what I'll always push. I've never seen them not perform well unless someone was looking to make over 800HP or so.

[S13VE]

I should stop asking questions, this head keeps getting more expensive

I better end up making good power on low boost and never having any head issues!

[RalliartRsX]

Originally Posted by 2_Liter_Turbo

I just got my Kelford 184-STs and Beehive springs in today! I'm trying to decide if I really need the shimless valve setup or not. EFR7163 on E85 and road racing (no bouncing off the rev limiter here).

Verdict is out . Apart from Bill Washburn and the one time he had a shim pop out on him, it seems only the drift/hardcore drag guys have this issue (for obvious reasons).

Shim it to factory specs and see how that works out. Do not forget step 5 when shimming; you can only shim 1 rocker finger at a time (you can do 4 valves per intake and exhaust to make it go quicker).

Me thinks it is a great idea but not a necessity. But if you have the head apart, whats another 5-700 dollars right?? Yeah, its called the VE slippery slope logic

Originally Posted by S13VE

I am hearing really mixed reviews about Supertech springs/retainers causing bad wear.

I've only run BCs and not for long enough to know if wear was an issue with those.

Maybe I'll just run the Kelford stuff then I can blame them if it wears

What's the shimless valve setup?

I think the mixed reviews (which are somewhat few and far between) are the 123lb supertechs. Meh, run what you can get your hands on.

I have one of the few sets of the Kelford Behives at the moment so we will

[2_Liter_Turbo]

Originally Posted by hanzbrady

You can use the Supertech dual stuff with the 184ST's that's what 90% of my customers run and it's a deadly setup.

As per the bigger valves, bigger valve = bigger amounts of air and more power. I've never seen a VE perform negatively with an oversized valve so I have no reason not to recommend them especially with how well these heads flow

Just be sure that you get the head ported to match. Blending the seat to the throat of the port is where you pick up most of the power and take advantage of the bigger valves.

But is shimless really that advantageous for an engine that'll most likely see less than 500whp (maybe a bit more, but not by much) and doesn't bounce off the rev limiter? I know it's technically better, but it eliminates the ability to reshim after 10k or 20k miles of hard abuse (which I've had to do on my solid lifter DET head), so I'm a bit hesitant.

Also, you left Mazworx right?

[S13VE]

I'm inclined to listen to Kelford as they helped me a lot with the GT-R when I wanted a very specific result from my combination of parts, they put in the yards understanding the setup and we got the result I wanted off the back of their cam.

Seems lower seat pressures are fine.

I've seen a few people make mention of knowing how to shim a VE properly, is there a list of steps I should know so I can query my head guy and make sure he's across it, I always like to know myself rather than trust blindly.

[RalliartRsX]

Originally Posted by S13VE

I should stop asking questions, this head keeps getting more expensive

I better end up making good power on low boost and never having any head issues!

Meh. P11/P12 cams work for 70-80% of the builds out there in all honesty. At close to $1000 USD, the price of entry is not worth it to me for sub 500 WHP.

But again, like everything it is just my opinion. YMMV

I recommend you lay out your power and usage goal and back track from there. Eliminate things you do not need to make your power reliably. Just realize once you start cracking 500+ WHP, costs rise exponentially, not linearly.

Not a cheap head, but thats because people end up sliding right down on the slippery slope and just continue to plunk $$ on items which are nice to haves but not necessarily needed (or they are going for big power, which is an automatic do not pass go and YOU spend 10,000 dollars ).

[S13VE]

And I try and keep this in mind as my power goal is not stupid.

My initial "recipe" was something like this.

Either P11 or P12 head - Wasn't sure as it was dependent on cams more than anything else.
Hall Effect Kit regardless of which head, though plenty of people say tghe P12 CAS is more than fine and given it's a chain and not a belt timing scatter is less an issue in SRs vs RB.
Single solenoid setup if P11 head.
New supertech guides and seals.
Basic spring upgrade, supertech/BC.
Maybe new std size valves as I hear various things about burnt valves and the stem size was a concern on the P12.
And go.

And given people often run 260-268deg cams in 500rwhp builds now, in DET heads, the P11 cams, on paper looked fine for an easy enough 350rwkw, but I'm told you can't compare them to DET heads/cams.

[RalliartRsX]

You are most definitely on the right track. There is some good info in this thread, so take your time and read through all 31 pages. Very good tidbits along the way


Simple setup cost effectiv............hahhahaha! Yeah couldn't say that with a straight face

But yeah....

P11 head
350Z or CBR coils
Taarks full conversion kit
Rebuild head (new guides, clean up/machine work, new valves, springs and retainers; $1000-1500 + cost of head)
STD cams( (whatever came with the head)
Forged bottom End
Then turbo, manifold, intake and the little things that add up. Get a xcessive and weld er up. Will perform for your purposes. People don't like them, but they work just fine. if you want to go one step further, plop some velocity stacks inside and go
Send it
Thats 90% of the way there. Its the details that really add up (ING-A1 coils, Mazworx IM, ID1300 injectors, E85 setup, CNC head, etc etc) and are worth the last 10-15%

It all comes down to cost vs what you want to spend. The head will make 500WHP with standard ports on standard P11 cams all day no problem (even better yet E85 or race gas). The head works that well.

You cannot compare how the DE head works with how a VE head works (especially interms of cams). The underlying concept in terms of cam profile vs flow vs rpm applies, but thats about it

[S13VE]

Yeah maybe I am going overkill then, as I was going e85 anyway which will help.

So maybe the recipe becomes:

P12 Head
P12 CAS as it comes with it anyway - unless we are all of the view that timing scatter is an issue with SRs over X revs or power? Selling the P12 cass covers most of the Hall effect cost anyway.
New supertech guides and seals.
Basic spring upgrade, supertech/BC + retainers (though I wish i could get something definitive on Titanium retainer wear).
New std size/maybe 1mm bigger Ex valves and off we go.

Or are the gains of the P12 really not worth it at this power level?

I can always swap out the cams later and P12 cams will sell more easily. Plus P12 head means I can use Yaris coils/any other COP setup.

[hanzbrady]

Originally Posted by 2_Liter_Turbo

But is shimless really that advantageous for an engine that'll most likely see less than 500whp (maybe a bit more, but not by much) and doesn't bounce off the rev limiter? I know it's technically better, but it eliminates the ability to reshim after 10k or 20k miles of hard abuse (which I've had to do on my solid lifter DET head), so I'm a bit hesitant.

Also, you left Mazworx right?

Outside of hardcore racing you wont have an issue spitting shims as long as the head is machined and assembled properly. It's just an amazing peace of mind to have when you do want to beat on it.

I did leave Mazworx about a year ago and have been at Real Street since. I also sold my S Chassis so I'm currently "out of the game" lol. I am turbocharging my E46 so I'm onto a whole new steep learning curve haha.

[2_Liter_Turbo]

Originally Posted by hanzbrady

Outside of hardcore racing you wont have an issue spitting shims as long as the head is machined and assembled properly. It's just an amazing peace of mind to have when you do want to beat on it.

I did leave Mazworx about a year ago and have been at Real Street since. I also sold my S Chassis so I'm currently "out of the game" lol. I am turbocharging my E46 so I'm onto a whole new steep learning curve haha.

Ha ha, I thought I remembered you leaving there!

I will definitely be beating on the engine on the road course, but I never had issues spitting shims out of the DET head. Are the VE heads worse for throwing shims? I thought they were better, lol. I've never pushed a VE head though, so I don't know first hand (My old P10 was never boosted, just an N/A P11 VE).

[hanzbrady]

Originally Posted by S13VE

Yeah maybe I am going overkill then, as I was going e85 anyway which will help.

So maybe the recipe becomes:

P12 Head
P12 CAS as it comes with it anyway - unless we are all of the view that timing scatter is an issue with SRs over X revs or power? Selling the P12 cass covers most of the Hall effect cost anyway.
New supertech guides and seals.
Basic spring upgrade, supertech/BC + retainers (though I wish i could get something definitive on Titanium retainer wear).
New std size/maybe 1mm bigger Ex valves and off we go.

Or are the gains of the P12 really not worth it at this power level?

I can always swap out the cams later and P12 cams will sell more easily. Plus P12 head means I can use Yaris coils/any other COP setup.

The issue with the OEM SR CAS discs is the resolution, the only ECU's that read a resolution that high and perform well are the Motec boxes. Haltech and AEM can "work" with it now but I wouldn't call it performing.

You can fix that with a lower resolution or a hall effect setup which is easier to read.

Titanium retainers just don't wear, this is an internet myth. Unless there's something drastically wrong in the valve train your engines life span will not be shortened by a titanium retainer your right foot will do it first.

*edit I forgot to hit some points here,

The P11 and the P12 head flow nearly identical at all power level there isn't a real advantage. I've personally tested both. If anything i'd say the P11 is better due to the larger aftermarket and availability of cores. The only VE head that's flat out better is the 20V due to the MASSIVE intake ports.

Also the CBR coils are the go to with an external ignition module. I'm pretty sure that's what the Denso's that Mazworx sells actually are.

[hanzbrady]

Originally Posted by 2_Liter_Turbo

Ha ha, I thought I remembered you leaving there!

I will definitely be beating on the engine on the road course, but I never had issues spitting shims out of the DET head. Are the VE heads worse for throwing shims? I thought they were better, lol. I've never pushed a VE head though, so I don't know first hand (My old P10 was never boosted, just an N/A P11 VE).

Yeah, I tried to tell everyone but to this day I still get messages about machine work lol.

It's far less common in the VE head since its a shaft mounted rocker assembly. You only see it in cars that have aggressive limiters, sit on 2-step while staging. rev to 12K+, etc.

[2_Liter_Turbo]

Originally Posted by hanzbrady

Yeah, I tried to tell everyone but to this day I still get messages about machine work lol.

It's far less common in the VE head since its a shaft mounted rocker assembly. You only see it in cars that have aggressive limiters, sit on 2-step while staging. rev to 12K+, etc.

Ok cool, I thought so, but wanted to ask around a bit to make sure. Thanks man. And I totally understand having people still asking questions, I still get tons of questions from my old position in the industry, LOL. I don't mind helping here and there, but sometimes it gets a bit old for sure.