FBI Gets Caught!

[axiomatik]

The thing is, this device is functionally no different than having an FBI agent sitting in a car following you around. And they have never needed a warrant to do that either. You can't really claim an expectation of privacy when you are driving around on public roads in full sight of anyone. Anyone could follow you around if they wanted, that doesn't make it illegal.

This device just makes it more convenient and cheaper for the FBI, because now they don't have to pay agents to sit in a car 24 hours a day. A technician can come into work and pull up the device's log and see everywhere you have gone. Does it present ominous undertones of Big Brother? Sure. Is it illegal? No.

This guys dad was a Muslim religious leader, and he said some stupid things online, so the FBI looked into him.

[kingkilburn]

You have a reasonable expectation of privacy when it comes to your property. They can follow you all day but they can't touch your car without a warrant.

[codyace]

Originally Posted by supervenom

The beauty of America is that the citizens hold the power. As ignorant as the public may be to that fact, it is a fact.

We draw the line when "the people" decide its enough. It has to be a collective movement.

However, I don't think it will get to that point. UNLESS, a "state-of-emergency" is used as a pretext.

Long Live The West.

The biggest issue with 'the people' taking charge, is that 90% of them have a hard time not pissing on public toilet seats, merging onto the highway, staying out of debt, and generally living without assistance. Sorry, but if the 'public' really overthrew the government, we'd undoubtedly be worse off than we are now.

[gearhead55]

Originally Posted by codyace

The biggest issue with 'the people' taking charge, is that 90% of them have a hard time not pissing on public toilet seats, merging onto the highway, staying out of debt, and generally living without assistance. Sorry, but if the 'public' really overthrew the government, we'd undoubtedly be worse off than we are now.

Truth. A truly successful democracy is dependent on an intelligent, educated, and involved society. The majority of the US population is 0 for 3...

[handinpants]

wow if i found a tracking device on my car i would have immediately hired a lawyer and given the said surveilance equipment to my lawyerm and when the fbi comes looking for it, i would tell them its mone now and they can't have it back.

screw those guys they didn't mount it in good hiding space, you can count on me suing the fbi because my late night cheese burger and hooker cravings don't need to be followed. all those late night canyon sessions. I would sell the unit to the highest bidder on ebay because of my current financial situation, milk the fbi... if they have the money to make that kind of gadget then they have the money to buy me tires for race day

[codyace]

Originally Posted by handinpants

wow if i found a tracking device on my car i would have immediately hired a lawyer and given the said surveilance equipment to my lawyerm and when the fbi comes looking for it, i would tell them its mone now and they can't have it back.

screw those guys they didn't mount it in good hiding space, you can count on me suing the fbi because my late night cheese burger and hooker cravings don't need to be followed. all those late night canyon sessions. I would sell the unit to the highest bidder on ebay because of my current financial situation, milk the fbi... if they have the money to make that kind of gadget then they have the money to buy me tires for race day

See the thing is, they're not tracking 'joes' they're tracking 'suspects'

[kingkilburn]

They can't track any one without a warrant so fuck'em.

[codyace]

Originally Posted by kingkilburn

They can't track any one without a warrant so fuck'em.

Ah yes, the US legal system. Like getting a warrant takes any time or takes any persausion these days, especially with most judges being hooked up 24/7 to court house systems and networks.

So yes you are right. You are also only kidding yourself to think if getting a warrant to do this is anything special or difficult.

[BustedS13]

Originally Posted by kingkilburn

They can't track any one without a warrant so fuck'em.

Law enforcement officers may secretly place a GPS device on a person's car without seeking a warrant from a judge, according to a recent federal appeals court ruling in California.

Court allows agents to secretly put GPS trackers on cars - CNN

it's from august, but, it hasn't been made illegal since then, has it? i didn't read the thread.

[kingkilburn]

Originally Posted by codyace

Ah yes, the US legal system. Like getting a warrant takes any time or takes any persausion these days, especially with most judges being hooked up 24/7 to court house systems and networks.

So yes you are right. You are also only kidding yourself to think if getting a warrant to do this is anything special or difficult.

It is neither of those things so it's bull shit that they don't do it.

Originally Posted by BustedS13

Court allows agents to secretly put GPS trackers on cars - CNN

it's from august, but, it hasn't been made illegal since then, has it? i didn't read the thread.

I'm aware of that and it is disgusting.



The reason they have allowed this is because they would never be able to secure a warrant for the bullshit they are tracking people for.

[axiomatik]

Actually, they would have no trouble getting a warrant. Like I said, putting the tracking device on a car is no different than following you in an unmarked car, and they don't need a warrant for that either.

Now, if they entered your vehicle, and rummaged around in your glovebox while attaching the tracking device, that would require a warrant. But simply tracking the location of your car is not a breach of privacy, you are driving it out in the open on public roads.

[codyace]

Originally Posted by kingkilburn

The reason they have allowed this is because they would never be able to secure a warrant for the bullshit they are tracking people for.

As I said above, the Feds or any gov't entity would really have 'zero' issue getting a warrant in these situations.

As I said above, you're only kidding yourself for thinking it's a 'big deal' to get a judge to grant a warrant.

Remember, it's not a 'right' to drive your car, especially on federally owned land.


I can understand how you think it's disgusting and wrong...I don't think anyone can say that 'love it'...BUT I'm also a strong believer in the fact that I think the GOVT should be able to go above and beyond at times to protect everyone. I'd rather than be proactive and upset a few people, than sit back and let a potential disaster happen, and have tens/hundreds/thousands of people upset/hurt/killed.

Our world is changing; trying to adapt some 'old world' type laws to whats going on today simply just do not work. I love our freedom...(oxymoron in 3...2....1...) but I don't care if I'm tracked.

[ThatGuy]

food for thought:

For everyone screaming "Sue the Feds" and such...

Have you tracked down every company that has put a flyer on your windshield, and attempted to sue them? After all, they attached something to your vehicle, in your absence, without your consent. I mean, only cops are allowed to leave tickets on your windshield, right?

They didn't put a bomb on his car.
They didn't put a listening device in the cockpit.
They simply put a tracking beacon on it, to keep track of where he was going.

In this ever changing world, we have to be more careful about what we ignore.
We have ignored things in the past, that have come back to haunt us.
Evidently this gentleman has done something in the past to be put on the "do not ignore" list.


Now, YES, all you law abiding citizens have every right to be upset if you did nothing wrong and something like this happened to you. But I don't believe that is the case here. There is more to this story than what "Reddit" or "Wired" are getting.

This seems perfectly legal and just.

[kingkilburn]

Freedom vs. Security: A False Choice

by Rep. Ron Paul, MD
by Rep. Ron Paul, MD

In recent days administration officials have warned the nation about possible terrorist attacks, subjecting us once again to color-coded threat charts and puzzling admonitions to go about our lives as usual. The message is clear: grave danger surrounds us, but ordinary citizens should do nothing and trust the government take care of it.

But the obvious lesson of September 11th is that government cannot protect us. Even with trillions of tax dollars spent on “defense,” hijacked planes flew unchallenged over our skies and attacked national symbols of business and government. Yet now we're told to put even more faith into the same bureaucracies that failed us so miserably in the past? Self-reliance and self-defense are American virtues; trembling reliance on the illusion of government-provided security is not.

It's easy for elected officials in Washington to tell Americans that government will do whatever it takes to defeat terrorism, but it's your freedom and your tax dollars at stake — not theirs. The history of the 20th century demonstrates that the Constitution is violated most egregiously during times of crisis. Many of our worst unconstitutional agencies and programs began during the two world wars and the Depression, when the public was anxious and willing to view government as a savior and protector. Ironically, the Constitution itself was conceived in a time of great crisis. The founders intended to place inviolable restrictions on what the federal government could do even in times of great distress. America must guard against current calls for government to violate the Constitution — meaning break the law — in the name of law enforcement.

The misnamed Patriot Act, presented to the public as an anti-terrorism measure, actually focuses on American citizens rather than foreign terrorists. For example, the definition of "terrorism" for federal criminal purposes has been greatly expanded; future administrations may consider you a terrorist if you belong to a pro-gun group, a citizen militia, or a pro-life organization. Legitimate protest against the government could place you (and tens of thousands of other Americans) under federal surveillance. Similarly, your Internet use can be monitored without your knowledge, and your Internet provider can be forced to hand over user information to law enforcement without a warrant or subpoena.

The biggest problem with these new law enforcement powers is that they bear little relationship to fighting terrorism. Surveillance powers are greatly expanded, while checks and balances on government are greatly reduced. Most of the provisions have been sought after by domestic law enforcement agencies for years, not to fight terrorism, but rather to increase their police power over the American people. The federal government has made no showing that it failed to detect or prevent the September 11th attacks because of the civil liberties that will be compromised by this new legislation.

America was founded by men who understood that the threat of domestic tyranny is as great as any threat from abroad. If we want to be worthy of their legacy, we must resist the rush toward ever-increasing state control of our society. Otherwise, our own government will become a greater threat to our freedoms than any foreign terrorist.

June 2, 2004

Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.

Have fun with your security. I'll be keeping my freedom at ALL costs.

[singlecamslam]

oh man, my friend was helping out a drug dealer (he didnt know he was a drug dealer) lifted up his car and saw that thing there. Haha, i'm all for it

[zylvia213]

I honestly dont think this is bad at all... who knows for how long they been doing this to people and know that someone finds it they make it into a big deal. No one is being hurt by this. Im pretty sure theyve caught many people doing some illegal shit by tracking them this way.

[axiomatik]

Originally Posted by kingkilburn

Have fun with your security. I'll be keeping my freedom at ALL costs.

I oppose many parts of the Patriot Act. I especially find it abhorrent that it allows law enforcement to listen in on the phone conversations of American Citizens without a warrant, an activity that has always required a warrant in the past, and it violates a citizen's expectation of privacy.

But again, following you around and seeing where you drive has never been an activity that has required a warrant. It is not a search nor a seizure. It can't be considered a breach of privacy, because, as I mentioned before, you are driving on public roads in full sight of anyone else.

Please point to where in the Bill of Rights this activity would be prohibited.

[kingkilburn]

They can't attach a device to my car with out my knowledge or a warrant. In the past a warrant would never be given for this with out just cause. It's the same as them not being able to install listening devices on your house.

We have a reasonable expectation of privacy upheld by more than two centuries of legal precedent and legislative decisions.

The lack of a right to privacy is one of the major shortfalls of our constitution.

EDIT

Please point to where in the Bill of Rights this activity would be prohibited.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and Warrants shall not be issued, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

All the feds have done is removed the need for a warrant.

[ThatGuy]

But NOTHING has been searched.

All they are doing is tracking his whereabouts.

I agree that they should not ever be allowed to search your possessions, or tap your phone, or install a listening device of any kind, without a warrant.

This is not a listening device though, it is a GPS tracker. The same thing Hulk Hogan installed in his daughters car. The same thing that is being installed on many phones these days to allow parents to keep track of their children.

How is this a violation of privacy?

I guess that is the point I am missing in this argument.

What privacy is he being stripped of by them using a GPS device, rather then a tail car, or paid informants at his local hang outs? Neither of which require a warrant, just probable cause.

[codyace]

Originally Posted by kingkilburn

Have fun with your security. I'll be keeping my freedom at ALL costs.

Why not raise your right hand and defend it then, instead of mis understanding what tracking vs searching is.

I enjoy my freedom. I joined to help protect it. I don't do anythign illegal to even remotely show up on a Gov't 'suspect' type report. I pay my taxes, drive like a human, and generally don't act like a invilid; with that said (as I said above) I also enjoy that my governemnt is taking a proactive role against terrorism.

Much like those complaining about airport security being 'bothersome', I like to say 'sure, lets let them fly some planes into buildings again, your need for a waterbottle and to keep your shoes on are more important'

Originally Posted by ThatGuy

What privacy is he being stripped of by them using a GPS device, rather then a tail car, or paid informants at his local hang outs? Neither of which require a warrant, just probable cause.

Most certainly!

Like you, I'm about proactive security -- I think we all can agree the Fed's have better things to do than to put trackers on everones car...somewhere/someplace/somehow this 'Guy' must have came up hot for something...

[superbike81]

I love when people start bringing the word "freedom" into a discussion like this, absolutely fucking retarded.

If you aren't doing anything wrong, your "freedom" isn't being violated.

They can bug my phone, my house, put cameras on me, and have a FBI agent following me around everywhere I go. Hell, I'll even give the guy a nice office chair so he can sit next to me at my desk. I don't care because I'm not doing anything wrong.

[kingkilburn]

By putting any device on my car they are violating my property. It is almost irrelevant that it is a tracking device.




Don't give me that bullshit freedom in quotes. It's fucking insulting, like freedom is just this little meaningless thing not worthy of discussion.


I really wish more Americans would learn about political theory and the psychology of power. The ridiculous bs that people come up with to justify the government's actions has me pulling my hair out.

[superbike81]

I really wish people like you would stop freaking the fuck out about such little stuff.

How would a tracking device on your car limit the activities you engage in at all? If it doesn't limit the things you can do, it's not violating your freedom.

This is the way the world is going, so get used to it.

[kingkilburn]

Fuck the way the world is going.

It's not little stuff either. Things like this lead to the ruination of the lives of good people.

When you add up all the little things you get a scary image.

Wire tapping without the need for a warrant.
Catching any and all communications over the internet(this type of communication should be held to the same standards a paper mail).
Forcing companies all over the world to divulge what should be confidential information through blackmail.
Revoking citizenship with no trial.
Extraordinary rendition.
Torture and incarceration with zero evidence.
GPS tracking of privately owned vehicles with no need for a warrant.

That's not even getting into any of the screwed up economic or monetary policy.

[superbike81]

You didn't answer my question. How does a tracking device on your vehicle limit what you can do?

[kingkilburn]

That question is entirely irrelevant.

[superbike81]

You brought up "freedom" in this thread, which is entirely irrelevant because "freedom" isn't affected by something like a vehicle tracking device.

[kingkilburn]

The tracking isn't what's important. The fact that they can violate my property is disgusting.


If they can't break into my house why can they break into my car?



BTW-Police need a warrant to use the GPS in cell phones.

[superbike81]

You are putting way too much thought into this and stressing out about way too much.

Not a big deal.

[kingkilburn]

Not stressing at all.

We will have to agree to disagree on the big deal part.


I see all of this stuff as a means to an end(not in a big conspiracy theory way) and the driving direction looks a bit to powerful to me. There is a constant struggle for power between the citizens and the government and for the last 20 or so years we the citizens have been really losing out.