JWT vs Enthalpy ECU comparison dyno results!! *Another* 400 whp CodyAce Built Car

[2fast4y0u]

i have the same setup...basically, and im waiting to get to the dyno. im using an enthalpy tune and i couldnt be happier with it so far. i have 300 miles on it some far, did 90 miles the other day with my brother and his m3. I have heard great things about JWT and have used them for misc. things awhile back.

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

Greddy Easycams

Greddy - Founded and Driven by Racers

I keep the VTC on the intake cam and it makes for some extra mid range punch. Lower duration than most other aftermarket cams so you do not get the top end of the other aftermarket cams but they are nice and no after market valve train is needed. I made 334whp/311TQ on them and I like em a lot.

you are smoking a gsxr750 with 334 whp? or is that what you HAD and now you have more? my cousin has a gsxr750 and he is doing 10.4 in the 1/4...its fucking fast! he has slips to prove it.

[HemiCharger]

Originally Posted by 2fast4y0u

i have the same setup...basically, and im waiting to get to the dyno. im using an enthalpy tune and i couldnt be happier with it so far. i have 300 miles on it some far, did 90 miles the other day with my brother and his m3. I have heard great things about JWT and have used them for misc. things awhile back.




you are smoking a gsxr750 with 334 whp? or is that what you HAD and now you have more? my cousin has a gsxr750 and he is doing 10.4 in the 1/4...its fucking fast! he has slips to prove it.

I do not know could have been a 600 not sure. I know crotch rockets are fast but once you break loose and are within a half sec or so of the car or bike you are running it is really hard for them to pull on you. Look at the torque number I am within 10-12 of cody's 400 whp run. That is pretty good IMO. I guess I do have a little more cause that is what it pulled before as a base line -- I have guessed my car to be a 11 sec car could be high or low depending on driver.

[yabeet]

I have a Power FC, in May I will be dyno tuning to roughly 15 psi.

Using stock bottom end, GT2871 .64, JWT S3 cams, stock intake mani [for now] no VCT. Tomei mani and elbow, 3" exh. Only problem is, Calgary is at 3500ft and air density changes rapidly throughout the week.

This thread is excellent btw good job!

[GabeS14]

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

Then I guess I would just have to forget about the Triumph Daytona or GSX750 I smoked. They pull hard but I broke away with like 3 cars on the GSXR and he could not over take me -- I was having spark blow out at the time with .044 gaped plugs which I have since fixed. Gaped to .028.... which is what they need. My car might be different though. I make mad mid range torque and horsepower. I have a cammed s14 motor with a GT2871R and I kept VTC so my midrange at 3000 rpm is at least 100 hp more than a normal SR s13 motor. My tuner over laid the graphs when we tuned it. I make around 80-100 whp more than a comparable s13 motor up till I reach peak where they end up the same. I think the mid range matters a lot?

I think the biker either wasnt really racing you or he didnt know how to ride, because i will guarantee you that you need about 450 hp to beat a 600-750 bike, and about 600 to play with a 1000 cc bike. Thats if the biker is experiened of course
Also
I dont understand how your motor makes 100hp more than a comparable
S13 motor if you said earlier you have an s14 motor, do you mean a comparable s14 motor with different cams?

[codyace]

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

It is your setup and what you like but I can tell you have had my swap now for 50 thousand miles and have been running 18.5 lbs of boost with my Power FC for almost 2 years now and I burn no oil nor use any coolant. The power FC is what they would use on the car in Japan at a specialty tuner shop. It can be street tuned unlike a canned tune. You will never be able to get all that there is out of your setup with them no matter what cause they are limited in that regards.

I'm not disagreeing that a PFC isn't good - I just think that for a car under 400 hp, this side of a track race fuel car, that a Enthalpy or JWT ROM tune will net as much average and peak power/torque than any off 'custom tune'. (If that makes any sense). You have a PFC = Great...this thraed is just a representation of what a nice, 500 dollar off the shelf tune can produce...versus a 1000+ setup.

Awesome on the milage too. I also do 4-5 track (HPDE/timed) events all summer, so take that into consideration. They always say 1 mile on track is equivilent to nearly 5 of street driving, so I'd like to think to continue making the power I do, and to not have any oil issues or anything, that it's pretty good for a rom tune.

Originally Posted by 4x4le

No, at least not the guys I know with them. I have hung with some of the slower 600s but they are usually still faster.

It also comes down to gearing/speed as well. Also how good of a rider you're verse. To catch a big from a low (10ish hit) it's going to take a solid 450 whp to keep up. Catch them mid range and it's good fun.

Originally Posted by OBEEWON

Good work Cody.
You want to tune my RB, and use it for an A/C bracket guinea pig??

LOL I'm scared of RB's! They just don't like American air hehe. Everyone that's come to our dyno day has had issues hehe.

(Have you checked Evans TUning, or RT??)

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

Then I guess I would just have to forget about the Triumph Daytona or GSX750 I smoked. They pull hard but I broke away with like 3 cars on the GSXR and he could not over take me

Sure it wasn't a Carb'd 750? Sounds like a rider issue.

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

-- I was having spark blow out at the time with .044 gaped plugs which I have since fixed. Gaped to .028.... which is what they need. My car might be different though. I make mad mid range torque and horsepower. I have a cammed s14 motor with a GT2871R and I kept VTC so my midrange at 3000 rpm is at least 100 hp more than a normal SR s13 motor. My tuner over laid the graphs when we tuned it. I make around 80-100 whp more than a comparable s13 motor up till I reach peak where they end up the same. I think the mid range matters a lot?

100 more hp at 3000 rpm is a nice claim, but I'd love to see it. FWIW: These ROM cars that I help build usually make double what a stock turbo car does at that idle...even still though it's not a place where I'd put to much focus on in regard to power for our setups...with a good final drive you're hardly ever below 3000 as it is.

I like .022 to .025 for gap. Never had an issue, good power, 30mpg+ highway.

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

I am within 10-12 of cody's 400 whp run. That is pretty good IMO. I guess I do have a little more cause that is what it pulled before as a base line -- I have guessed my car to be a 11 sec car could be high or low depending on driver.

Got any graphs?

PS: A 400 hp car at our light weight should be a 11.0 car with a good 60. I went 11.65 @ 120 my first time out, with a crappy 1.88 60'. I also didn't touch my suspension settings or alignment from the HPDE day, so that wasn't helping either. Not bad considering I can't drag race. With more practice and a launch program I'm sure it would run a nice deep 11. BUT I could care less...these are response oriented cars, for road course days


Again, lets keep focus on the point: Badass ROM tunes are available for our cars....at an affordable price. For a ture 'bolt on -do burnouts' solution, I can't be happier.

[2fast4y0u]

Originally Posted by codyace

Again, lets keep focus on the point: Badass ROM tunes are available for our cars....at an affordable price. For a ture 'bolt on -do burnouts' solution, I can't be happier.

i hear that! nothing like smoking the shit out of the tires pretty much when ever.
if i could only get my clutch to hold better

i cant wait to see what i run this year at the track. im going may 29th to the drag strip. should be interesting

[mattsil80wis]

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

Then I guess I would just have to forget about the Triumph Daytona or GSX750 I smoked. They pull hard but I broke away with like 3 cars on the GSXR and he could not over take me -- I was having spark blow out at the time with .044 gaped plugs which I have since fixed. Gaped to .028.... which is what they need. My car might be different though. I make mad mid range torque and horsepower. I have a cammed s14 motor with a GT2871R and I kept VTC so my midrange at 3000 rpm is at least 100 hp more than a normal SR s13 motor. My tuner over laid the graphs when we tuned it. I make around 80-100 whp more than a comparable s13 motor up till I reach peak where they end up the same. I think the mid range matters a lot?

YouTube - 4-19-10 Junkyard Dog SR20 Sil80 matt vs srt4 vs 636 roll race

im not a bad driver and this is what it looks like when i race a 636...no way that you make less hp and beat 750 which are a lot faster than 636s

[2fast4y0u]

/\ holy back fires bat man

that was pretty sweet. so was that the setup you have now?

[HemiCharger]

Originally Posted by mattsil80wis

YouTube - 4-19-10 Junkyard Dog SR20 Sil80 matt vs srt4 vs 636 roll race

im not a bad driver and this is what it looks like when i race a 636...no way that you make less hp and beat 750 which are a lot faster than 636s

I about as good at bench racing as you are in your tube video. I do not know what it was they all look the same to me but he could not pull nor pass me and I was laid into it pretty good and so was he. It was a super sport bike GSXR maybe 600 since it was blue and white. I have no idea?

He kicked it down 3 gears when I pulled up beside him so I know he was into as much as it would go. I have sent my tuner an email to try and get the dyno graphs ---

[2fast4y0u]

i would like to see them. i will have my cousin(gsxr 750) run next to me and see what happens.

[codyace]

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

I about as good at bench racing as you are in your tube video. I do not know what it was they all look the same to me but he could not pull nor pass me and I was laid into it pretty good and so was he. It was a super sport bike GSXR maybe 600 since it was blue and white. I have no idea?

He kicked it down 3 gears when I pulled up beside him so I know he was into as much as it would go. I have sent my tuner an email to try and get the dyno graphs ---

So the fact remains that you have no clue what you played around with, yet go out and claim a 750? Quit being a ricer - you''re not impressing anyone on here with half a brain.

I ask you this in the most polite manner possible: Please quit posting here unless you have ROM tune experience, or commenting on the tunes in general. It's obvious your custom tune isn't up to part with the off the shelf tune, so either you need to find a better tuner, or something is a miss. I'd hope with a custom Standalone tune you'd make better power...

[HemiCharger]

Originally Posted by codyace

So the fact remains that you have no clue what you played around with, yet go out and claim a 750? Quit being a ricer - you''re not impressing anyone on here with half a brain.

I ask you this in the most polite manner possible: Please quit posting here unless you have ROM tune experience, or commenting on the tunes in general. It's obvious your custom tune isn't up to part with the off the shelf tune, so either you need to find a better tuner, or something is a miss. I'd hope with a custom Standalone tune you'd make better power...

Wow. I did not look at the side of it and do not know what it was? Why is your panties in a wad? I hate to tell you this but any tuner will tell you the same thing. A canned tune is never as good as a custom made tune for your car. Anyone should know and have known this to be a FACT.

One is a tuned used among many cars and usually is a baseline in which you have to send it back again and again. I do not care about more power. I am running a safe tune good for me. I can get 25 mpg and could care less if I made 400 whp or not. I like my car like it is and I live in Arkansas. I come across absolutely 0 people that have something as fast or faster on the streets. I am sure there may be some around just I have not come across them. If you want a torquey 4 cylinder with great mid range then do the same keep VTC and get an AEM or Power FC. I did not pay much more than you did for my ECU. If you would have and could have done that you would have. So stop hating. It makes me absolutely no difference who has the baddest 240sx around cause I drive my car for me not impress anyone else and if they are impressed then great good for them.

I used your extrude honed header thing and it was a great thing to do. I know you know a lot about 240s probably more than I do especially since I do not know tuning. Do not attack me like some RICER straight out of Tokyo Drift. thanks

[mattsil80wis]

Originally Posted by 2fast4y0u

/\ holy back fires bat man

that was pretty sweet. so was that the setup you have now?

lol 3 inch straight pipe to a turn down

yeah that was the current set up...against the srt i spun 2nd both times hard...road was really cold and tires were not that hot

against the bike i loaded 3rd so this way i didnt spin

[HemiCharger]

Originally Posted by GabeS14

I think the biker either wasnt really racing you or he didnt know how to ride, because i will guarantee you that you need about 450 hp to beat a 600-750 bike, and about 600 to play with a 1000 cc bike. Thats if the biker is experiened of course
Also
I dont understand how your motor makes 100hp more than a comparable
S13 motor if you said earlier you have an s14 motor, do you mean a comparable s14 motor with different cams?

No dude I kept VTC on my intake cam which everyone that runs to big power greater than 400 whp dumps. So, in lower rpm the intake cam goes to a little longer duration in order to get more air flow on the intake side. My tuner told me that he over laid the graph with one of the other s13 SRs that had comparable mods and made around 340 whp. That my graph was anywhere from 80-100 whp higher in the mid range area for a given RPM level. They both end up at the same power level but the mid range punch is higher. Anyone that has taken physics should know that more power at a lower rpm level is more efficient than another engine making less power at that level.

[codyace]

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

Anyone that has taken physics should know that more power at a lower rpm level is more efficient than another engine making less power at that level.

You have got to be one of the most dense new guys I've encountered in a while. What does LOW rpm flow have to do with ANY sort of VE calculation? I find it ironic you making 'physics' comments when its' VERY obvious you have taken any yourself.

It''s also pretty obvious you know nothing about flow on an engine either. I guess you know more than engine builders right? Lets flow at minimal lift, that's what wins races right...why not stick low duration high lift cams in everything, no body cares abotu top end, it's all about making power BEFORE the turbo even is lit haha.

Just because a car makes more power off the hit gives ZERO indication of its' efficiency, or it's ability. Do you even understand the concept of 'average power' or 'powerband'. Sorry mate, but you can quit swinging from the nuts of VTC as it's providing NO advantage to your car (other than what you believe). Wow you make 20 more hp and ft lbs from 2000-3000. Graet. What about the 50 hp you lost up top running the smaller cam? What's really the faster car? Again average power = faster car. If VTC is king, why isn't everyone using it. Are there even at VTC cars in the 11's??

Please stop smearing up this thread with your garbage. If you want to learn anything, or read about anything, take it to PM with me, and I'll be glad to educate you. Maybe you can take some of your information back to the saleman (oh i mean tuner) who tuned your car as well. Oh well. How bout that 400 hp junkyard POS that we built. Makes better power everywhere than your car. Maybe I should revert back to a smaller cam, and VTC because your tuner said so PS: I just raced a 1000 and won. I think. I didn't see the bike that well, in fact don't even know the brand. But i know it was a 1000 that I beat.


Again, please stop postinggggggg. You're making my head hurt and clogging up the thread.

[sbc]

Originally Posted by jspaeth

you have a "cammed" S14 motor, but kept VTC...what does that mean?

You have aftermarket VTC cams? Who even makes them? (I have never heard of it, that's why I ask)

I've also got JWT S3s with VTC for an s14 sr. When you order them you can request that they machine them in order to retain the VTC function.

My engine hasn't been assembled yet so I cant give you any numbers.

I think price for machining is something like $35-$50

[HemiCharger]

Originally Posted by codyace

You have got to be one of the most dense new guys I've encountered in a while. What does LOW rpm flow have to do with ANY sort of VE calculation? I find it ironic you making 'physics' comments when its' VERY obvious you have taken any yourself.

It''s also pretty obvious you know nothing about flow on an engine either. I guess you know more than engine builders right? Lets flow at minimal lift, that's what wins races right...why not stick low duration high lift cams in everything, no body cares about top end, it's all about making power BEFORE the turbo even is lit haha.

Just because a car makes more power off the hit gives ZERO indication of its' efficiency, or it's ability. Do you even understand the concept of 'average power' or 'powerband'. Sorry mate, but you can quit swinging from the nuts of VTC as it's providing NO advantage to your car (other than what you believe). Wow you make 20 more hp and ft lbs from 2000-3000. Graet. What about the 50 hp you lost up top running the smaller cam? What's really the faster car? Again average power = faster car. If VTC is king, why isn't everyone using it. Are there even at VTC cars in the 11's??

Please stop smearing up this thread with your garbage. If you want to learn anything, or read about anything, take it to PM with me, and I'll be glad to educate you. Maybe you can take some of your information back to the saleman (oh i mean tuner) who tuned your car as well. Oh well. How bout that 400 hp junkyard POS that we built. Makes better power everywhere than your car. Maybe I should revert back to a smaller cam, and VTC because your tuner said so PS: I just raced a 1000 and won. I think. I didn't see the bike that well, in fact don't even know the brand. But i know it was a 1000 that I beat.


Again, please stop postinggggggg. You're making my head hurt and clogging up the thread.

then do not look at from efficiency. Look at Distance, Velocity and Time. An engine that is producing more horsepower and torque at a lower RPM is going to be at a higher velocity (for that given RPM) than one making less at that given horsepower and torque unless your magic ROM tune changed that. I have no desire to e-thug argue on a internet site. Have you ever seen our cars or any car for that matter 'REEL' their opponent back in? Well that is what happens when you have more top end power. You are right I have had physics and I also make 311 foot lbs of torque where you made 322 or so. You make more horsepower of which I do not care. Again, it stands to reason if you have a comparable s13 to s14, keep the VTC and they both make 340 or 350 whp then the s14 motor is going to make a more usable power and torque. Just the way it is.

A ROM tune again is not as good as any Standalone -- Do you want something that is made for every car with an sr20det out there or do you want something custom taking into account every modification you have to provide you with the best tune possible? JWT does great tuning no doubt but unless you took your car to them, stuck it on their dyno, and got something custom from them then I would not want to run it. To each their own though and if you love it then great.

[HemiCharger]

Originally Posted by sbc

I've also got JWT S3s with VTC for an s14 sr. When you order them you can request that they machine them in order to retain the VTC function.

My engine hasn't been assembled yet so I cant give you any numbers.

I think price for machining is something like $35-$50

good then have them compare your dyno chart to another making the same horsepower but without VTC and lets see the results?

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

good then have them compare your dyno chart to another making the same horsepower but without VTC and lets see the results?

What you are not getting, is that the VTC only increases your torque in a part of the powerband that you would NOT use in cases where you care about going fast.

....but you are sacrificing 40-50+ hp in parts of the powerband that you WOULD use when you are trying to "go fast".

In any real "racing" situation (other than going from a dig in 1st gear, which we all spin through anyway), you will always be keeping the revs at 4000+, so the VTC stuff is not of much help.

Basically what Cody said

[sirfallsalot243]

Hemicharger, I will paypal you $10 if you leave this thread and never return to it.

I was enjoying reading the discussion prior to it becoming an elementary engine tech discussion.

Youre like the Honda boys that insist upon lowering VTEC to 2300rpms.

[HemiCharger]

Originally Posted by jspaeth

What you are not getting, is that the VTC only increases your torque in a part of the powerband that you would NOT use in cases where you care about going fast.

....but you are sacrificing 40-50+ hp in parts of the powerband that you WOULD use when you are trying to "go fast".

In any real "racing" situation (other than going from a dig in 1st gear, which we all spin through anyway), you will always be keeping the revs at 4000+, so the VTC stuff is not of much help.

Basically what Cody said

you do use that band in autoX and Drifting. Of which I belong to SCCA.

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

you do use that band in autoX and Drifting. Of which I belong to SCCA.

Ok true, if you count Autocross as racing....because you are constantly spooling and unspooling the turbo.

[mattsil80wis]

the JWT tune right now is just a baseline...just sent clark all the datalogging so he can fine tune everything...basically meaning to improve the tune for my car

instead of buying an s14 motor and dealing with vtc, why not just buy bigger gears for the rear to help with the low end power that your missing (ie. i run 4.40 gears, cody runs 4.6 gears) never any problems with getting the car back into the power range

[2fast4y0u]

and i want to clarify with Enthalyp there is no sending and re sending...Martin gives you a base tune and then you can change(if needed) with an s-afc(which i have now) or you can data log it and send the file. he makes corrections and mails you replacement chips with no down time on your end.
to break it down. i got my ecu which already had an Enthalpy tune in it.i sent it to them and he set it up for my parts, mailed it back to me and i have had it since. When ever i change some thing MAJOR i let him know, he burns the chips, overnights them to me and i return the old ones. NO DOWN TIME!
so its not a "custom" tune but its a custom tune for me. i might make some final adjustments with my afc but that would be for the weather at most.
i cant believe how well some one who has never seen my car or my parts can make me a tune and have it work.
im sure that most of the parts these days are with in a certain amount from each other. ie: greddy intake manifold and a Freddy intake manifold are probably pretty close to being the same thing. so once you have made a working/usable tune its close for everyone...but when happens when you throw in a curve ball like, bigger cams, injector sizes, turbo ar, throttle body sizes???
i am running 850cc injectors which is larger then what most people run...but that wasnt an issue


i know this all stuff that MOST people already know about the tunes but what the hell, figured i would be some what informative in this thread.

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by 2fast4y0u

and i want to clarify with Enthalyp there is no sending and re sending...Martin gives you a base tune and then you can change(if needed) with an s-afc(which i have now) or you can data log it and send the file. he makes corrections and mails you replacement chips with no down time on your end.
to break it down. i got my ecu which already had an Enthalpy tune in it.i sent it to them and he set it up for my parts, mailed it back to me and i have had it since. When ever i change some thing MAJOR i let him know, he burns the chips, overnights them to me and i return the old ones. NO DOWN TIME!
so its not a "custom" tune but its a custom tune for me. i might make some final adjustments with my afc but that would be for the weather at most.
i cant believe how well some one who has never seen my car or my parts can make me a tune and have it work.
im sure that most of the parts these days are with in a certain amount from each other. ie: greddy intake manifold and a Freddy intake manifold are probably pretty close to being the same thing. so once you have made a working/usable tune its close for everyone...but when happens when you throw in a curve ball like, bigger cams, injector sizes, turbo ar, throttle body sizes???
i am running 850cc injectors which is larger then what most people run...but that wasnt an issue


i know this all stuff that MOST people already know about the tunes but what the hell, figured i would be some what informative in this thread.

My guess is that they have shop cars where they can just swap in X cams and tune it and use that for comparison.

I am sure it's not just a blind guess, they have something very similar to go off of.

I mean, changing cams takes literally like 2 hours or less, and the benefit of it for them is massive....

[2fast4y0u]

im not sure if he has a "test" car or not. i do know that he knows his shit. i had an issue with my setup and we thought it was the tune...a little trouble shooting on the phone and BAM, problem solved. he did that nearly 1000 miles away to. hes got some damn good customer service
every time i talked to him on the phone he is beating the piss out of some car hes driving. its not a 240. man he gets after it every time he can.

[j87w]

Cody, in the video of the car at the dyno it looks to be burning a lot of oil. Why does it smoke so bad on a fresh build?

[4x4le]

At the end of the day a custom tune is still better. However I will agree that today for the people that live in areas where they cant find a tuner, these 2 are GREAT options. I would have never said something like that 2 years ago!

Anyways,

Did this today with my sr20det.



9:1 cp pistons
eagle rods
stock head and cams with greddy ras
greddy im
n15 tb
jgy fuel rail
msd 72lb injectors
dual 255lph walbros
nismo fpr at 4bar
gt2871r .86 @24psi
jgy light flywheel
e85 only
and NISTUNE
Tuned by yours truly

I really wanted to spend more time but I drove the car to the dyno and I didnt bring any extra fuel. I know there is allot of room for improvement down low but I just didnt have enough fuel to make it back if I stayed on the dyno any longer.
Im impressed. I havent seen such numbers on a sr with that turbo.

[HemiCharger]

Originally Posted by 4x4le

At the end of the day a custom tune is still better. However I will agree that today for the people that live in areas where they cant find a tuner, these 2 are GREAT options. I would have never said something like that 2 years ago!

Anyways,

Did this today with my sr20det.



9:1 cp pistons
eagle rods
stock head and cams with greddy ras
greddy im
n15 tb
jgy fuel rail
msd 72lb injectors
dual 255lph walbros
nismo fpr at 4bar
gt2871r .86 @24psi
jgy light flywheel
e85 only
and NISTUNE
Tuned by yours truly

I really wanted to spend more time but I drove the car to the dyno and I didnt bring any extra fuel. I know there is allot of room for improvement down low but I just didnt have enough fuel to make it back if I stayed on the dyno any longer.
Im impressed. I havent seen such numbers on a sr with that turbo.

That is NICE....

[4x4le]

thanks.

how that pertains to this thread is showing another great example of what a rom tune can do with the right tuner, and a good dyno that has someone that knows how to read it and operate it. the dyno was a dual eddy dyno dynamics. the car had to be strapped down better because it was spinning the yokahamas.



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