LS1 S13 Handling and Power Delivery

[Psychomoongoose]

Hey guys Im a mountain road guy and am going with the LS1 swap nexxxt month. Im really excited, because my 270 WHP SR20 is causing me problems. Anyway, can anyone here with a LS1'd S13 tell me how their car is on the twistys? Im nervous about maybe too much torque and spinning out? I know this sounds bitch but my fucking car is clean and Ive never had a V8 in anything and the SR doesnt have nearly the throttle response or torque of the LS1 (im told and imagine). I just want to hear from some of the people with this swap and how the car behaves in the mountains. I really dont want to back my car off a cliff, but, too late! Im going with the swap anyhow. Can anyone give me some advice from experience? Oh ya i only got 225s on 17s in the rear.

[e1_griego]

Quit driving mountain roads and then it's not a problem.

There's these things called tracks, you should try one

And you will need more than 225s for sure.

[Psychomoongoose]

But I cant stop driving mountain roads. Thats what I do with my car!!! I wish I could track it but i really dont want the added weight of a cage. Its also my daily, and theres a mountain road on my way to work!!!

I want 18x9 and 18x10 but the only rims ill 'settle' for are Work VS-XX's and we all know how expensive those are. So prolly not till christmas or so. I already got a 5 lug and front and rear Z32 brakes, but cant really put em until i can afford them rims. And tires.

[davirene]

Lots of rubber....set your car up for grip....and invest in the best brakes you can afford...theres a thread on here with 240's and lots of tire stuffed in the wheel wells.....

[Psychomoongoose]

I have adjustable camber front and rear, and i think toe arms on the back. I bought the car like that and now I feel real dumb about not knowing exactly what they do for my car. Are theyre any baseline alignment setting that I can adjust to for grip? I want to run some lower offset wheels all around but not so low that I have to run like 4 degrees of camber.

Thanks for the halp

[e1_griego]

Maybe skip the ls1 for a bit....

[Psychomoongoose]

maybe too late. Look, i could drive the SR20 with 270WHP just fine. I just want something more reliable and better gas mileage. The power dont hurt, either. I just wanted 300 WHP and bulletproof reliability.

what type of car do you have and whats the mods? do you track it? Whats going to make me listen to you?
how can you say to skip the LS1?

[singlecamslam]

You're 28?

[e1_griego]

I say skip the ls1 because it seems like you need to learn about cars/driving some more... Maybe try an autocross or a whole season of it and learn to drive.

Backroads=/= real driving

[shiftdrift]

yeah, i think you need to learn a bit more before you jump up like that.

[Z33dori]

have fun fishing for your car off the side of a mountain.

[g6civcx]

Originally Posted by Psychomoongoose

can anyone here with a LS1'd S13 tell me how their car is on the twistys?

I can tell you how a small block chevy handles on the "twistys". Cast iron block weighs more than aluminium block, but it depends on the installation. Every single LS-series kit I've seen places the engine very high. I went custom for best weight distribution.

Originally Posted by Psychomoongoose

Im nervous about maybe too much torque and spinning out?

No one can help you there. Sign up for driving school.

Originally Posted by Psychomoongoose

Can anyone give me some advice from experience?

I can tell you that you will want to save up at least $15k. Not only is the drivetrain expensive, but you'll need supporting mods. Things add up very quickly.

[bmhossain]

It wont be like driving your SR and you'll definately need wider tires. Maybe you should hit the track with it before you go speeding down the mountain. This is not a cheap swap to do right. Maybe you'd be better putting that money somewhere else.

[Psychomoongoose]

Originally Posted by Z33dori

have fun fishing for your car off the side of a mountain.

have fun being a mark !!!

[Psychomoongoose]

[QUOTE=g6civcx;3553212]I can tell you how a small block chevy handles on the "twistys". Cast iron block weighs more than aluminium block, but it depends on the installation. Every single LS-series kit I've seen places the engine very high. I went custom for best weight distribution.[QUOTE=g6civcx;3553212]


Even the sikky kit? it seems like it mounts fairly low.

[tougefactory]

Stance released custom valved setup for LS1 equipped S chassis few weeks ago. They have been testing for past 3-4 months. The car was tested on the track, grip and drift and it handles like a dream. Even the ride quality has improved dramatically.

We put the car on the scales and LS1 equipped S chassis is only slightly heavier over the front tires compared to stock KA equipped chassis. But because the motor sits over the front axles, the dynamics of the chassis has changed. So Stance has developed a custom setup for this change.

Don't think you can just throw on regular coilovers on the car, get the LS1 spec coilovers! you won't regret it

[The Hamsterball]

If you're going to adjust the camber, adjust it accordingly to how stiff your shocks and springs are, and accordingly to how wide your new tires/wheels will be.
Maybe around -2.0 deg in front and -1.5 in rear for a start to test out before final adjustment.

Don't run any toe in or toe out. Definitely zero toe in front.
If you want to run any toe in the rear, run a very tiny amount.
(I ran 0 toe front and rear on my s13 for years and liked it).

If you're worried about the extra torque spinning your rear wheels easier, use the throttle less when you're apexing.
Learn to drive with the new engine slowly on your way to work. For a few weeks, lightly run on the mountain without using the brake on your runs. If you find that you have to use your brake still, you're going too fast.

It's a lot easier to just auto-x, hpde, or take your car out to an open track day though.

[fckillerbee]

Originally Posted by The Hamsterball

If you're going to adjust the camber, adjust it accordingly to how stiff your shocks and springs are, and accordingly to how wide your new tires/wheels will be.
Maybe around -2.0 deg in front and -1.5 in rear for a start to test out before final adjustment.

Don't run any toe in or toe out. Definitely zero toe in front.
If you want to run any toe in the rear, run a very tiny amount.
(I ran 0 toe front and rear on my s13 for years and liked it).

If you're worried about the extra torque spinning your rear wheels easier, use the throttle less when you're apexing.
Learn to drive with the new engine slowly on your way to work. For a few weeks, lightly run on the mountain without using the brake on your runs. If you find that you have to use your brake still, you're going too fast.

It's a lot easier to just auto-x, hpde, or take your car out to an open track day though.

yes, with anything with power...take it easy, take it to track...find it's limits...and don't think of going to the limit on a mountain pass....as weather has a huge factor in canyon racing....

fyi...more weight in the front means the rear will feel lighter...car will want to pivot more on the front wheels, allowing for more rotation....so take out the rear sway bar for the most traction.

and 225's....really....i drift my stock ka with 225 40 18x10j.....your not driving hard enough.

[Psychomoongoose]

thank you for your inputs, Hamsterball and FCkillerbee. This is what I was asking for, not a bunch of haters tryin ta salt my game. Do you guys know how much heavier it will be with the LS1 compared to my SR20 with a GT28 and a Greddy front mount? I looked around a lot on the V8 FAQ but alls i saw was a bunch of conflicting information.

Ya, thats what I figgerd on the mountain, just take it easy. I dont ever really push it on the road, just some spirited corners here and there. I only drive semi fast on roads I know, in the day, and sunny. I know how slippery cold\wet pavement can be.

Thanks again for the input guys.

[thenooblet]

You're probably gonna have more than 300whp, just to let you know. LS1's put down like 305whp in a stock f-body camaro w/ 3.55 gears. And with the supporting mods you need for the swap plus the stock s13 4.08 gears (im assuming you still have stock gears but you know what hapens when you assume) its gonna be more. I live very close to the shop that tuned Stewart Leask's LS1 s13 drift car (East Texas Muscle Cars) and the guy said he put down 420whp with just a very mild cam, and said you could stomp the gas in 2nd or 3rd gear (dont really remember what gear he said) doing about 55-60mph and it would do "the worlds biggest burnout." I'm doing an LS1 s14, fyi.

[g6civcx]

Originally Posted by Psychomoongoose

Even the sikky kit? it seems like it mounts fairly low.

I don't want to put down any vendor so I'll just keep the comments to my own application.

For me, every Sikky LS-series swap I've seen puts the engine way too high and too far forward for me. It may be ok for you but it's too high and too frontward for me.

I went with a custom mount that puts the engine 6 inches into the firewall. The top of my carburetor on custom mounts sits lower than the intake of an LS1 on Sikky mount.

FYI, the carb is a good 2-3" higher than the LS1 intake when measured from the bottom of the block so that gives you a good idea of how high the Sikky kit is.

The Hinson and Sikky kits sit way too high for me. I haven't seen the McKinney kit so I can't comment.

[Psychomoongoose]

I would like to see some pics of your setup and how much better your center of gravity (both front to back and top to bottom) is with the setup you have. I wish I could afford to do it like that but I have to have my car back from the mechanic ASAP because its my only car and I need it for work.

Do you have pics up on zilvia? Im interested also to know why you are going with carbs instead of an EFI setup. Have you finished this car? Have you drove it yet? I am really interested in hearing from someone who has had a SR and went with the LS1 and can tell me the difference in the dynamics of the car. So far, It doesnt sound like any of these replys come from anyone thats drove both besides possibly you.

[thenooblet]

Stew Leask, Jonny5 is his screen name, has an sr20 s14 and a ls1 s13. you could ask him if what the differences could be even though they are different chassis'

[Psychomoongoose]

Originally Posted by thenooblet

Stew Leask, Jonny5 is his screen name, has an sr20 s14 and a ls1 s13. you could ask him if what the differences could be even though they are different chassis'

I searched for Jonny5 but the search returned no results

[RacerX1]

Originally Posted by g6civcx

I can tell you how a small block chevy handles on the "twistys". Cast iron block weighs more than aluminium block, but it depends on the installation. Every single LS-series kit I've seen places the engine very high. I went custom for best weight distribution.



No one can help you there. Sign up for driving school.



I can tell you that you will want to save up at least $15k. Not only is the drivetrain expensive, but you'll need supporting mods. Things add up very quickly.

Are you crazy? $15k?! You can do it for well under $10k if you shop smart & do the labor yourself, you can prolly do it for under $8k

[Psychomoongoose]

Ya I paid $4500 for a 2002 LS1 and T56 with 26,000 miles and all accessories. Im paying about $3500 for the swap kit and headers, and the clutch master cylinder conversion and power steering lines. My buddys gonna install it for $500 but Imma give him a cool G just cuz hes the shit. So im in for $9000 so far, and imma need little shit here and there like a Y pipe and a rad fan. So im hoping under $10 Gs all together.

[g6civcx]

Originally Posted by Psychomoongoose

I would like to see some pics of your setup and how much better your center of gravity (both front to back and top to bottom) is with the setup you have

I do have pix and can take measurements for you to compare.

Originally Posted by Psychomoongoose

Im interested also to know why you are going with carbs instead of an EFI setup.

In order: cost, availability of parts, and easier to tune without using a computer.

Originally Posted by Psychomoongoose

Have you finished this car? Have you drove it yet? I am really interested in hearing from someone who has had a SR and went with the LS1 and can tell me the difference in the dynamics of the car. So far, It doesnt sound like any of these replys come from anyone thats drove both besides possibly you.

Yes, I daily drive it.

It's much better for low speed stuff like autocross or short road course. You don't have any lag compared to high power turbo cars.

For handling, I can't honestly say if I notice any difference. That may actually be a good thing.

The nicest thing is being able to accelerate in any gear without bogging or waiting to build boost.

The difference between my setup and an LS1 is that my torque comes earlier, and my throttle response is better than a stock LS1.

True that LS1 ultimately revs higher and makes more power, but for low speed stuff, which is most of what I do, I feel that my carb gives me better car control.

[g6civcx]

Originally Posted by RacerX1

Are you crazy? $15k?! You can do it for well under $10k if you shop smart & do the labor yourself, you can prolly do it for under $8k

$15k sounds like a lot, but keep in mind that when I was looking for a T56, it cost damn near $3k to find one in crappy shape. I got my T5 for $600 from a 305 Camaro sitting in the junkyard.

An LS1 in good shape would have easily cost me another $3-4k. If you can get a good deal on an LS1 then you should jump on it, but I was having trouble finding good used LS1s. My entire longblock/intake/carb costs $2000 new from GMPP.

Just the drivetrain alone would have cost me at least $6-7k. All the other small stuff like standalone engine harness and engine management, conversion kit for the power steering, cooling, engine mounts, etc., would have cost me another $3k easily if I wanted to do it right.

That's almost $10k in just parts before the price of the engine mount kits.

On top of that you add in all the incidentals and it's another few grand easily.

All this is before labor. If you pay a shop it's easily $15k or more.


Give Hinson a call to get an idea. They gave me a rough estimate of around $15k give or take a few grand to drop your car off, have them do the work, and be able to drive away.

[jrbump]

Damn, why do you have to be from Santa Rosa?


Anyway, don't listen to these haters. Part outs make this place go round.


-Cheers.

[josh18_2k]

Originally Posted by g6civcx

when I was looking for a T56, it cost damn near $3k to find one in crappy shape

freshly built upgraded T56's are 1800 with no core (steel forks, carbon synchros, etc)

Originally Posted by g6civcx

An LS1 in good shape would have easily cost me another $3-4k

my '00 pullout was 3800 shipped with an auto attached, back in '04. prices havnt climbed.

Originally Posted by g6civcx

Give Hinson a call to get an idea. They gave me a rough estimate of around $15k give or take a few grand to drop your car off, have them do the work, and be able to drive away.

hinson = total ripoff. i would never buy anything from him, other than his FC engine mounts (i have an LS1 FC). everything he sells can be had for half the price elsewhere, and his labor proces are rediculous.