S13 SR20DET Weird Noises - Lifters/ Bearing/ Rods? **VIDEO** - Page 2 - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

Dorifto Machine · 03-25-2013, 02:04 PM

So took it for a test drive , after doing everything we went over. Weird thing is it drives perfect and doesn't have any power loss but sound still present at around 3,000 RPM.

codyace · 03-25-2013, 07:20 PM

Does it happen repeatably at that RPM?

It could also be rod knock then. I was hoping not, but it is a known 'failure type' on these engines. If someone didn't put the caps back on correctly I can only imagine the bottom end not being properly assembled either.

What you can do, is disconnect one coil pack at a time. Sure it will run rough, but disregard. Rev the engine up and see if the rattle gets quieter or even disappears completely. If so it's time to open that bottom end up and investigate.

army240 · 03-25-2013, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codyace

Does it happen repeatably at that RPM?

It could also be rod knock then. I was hoping not, but it is a known 'failure type' on these engines. If someone didn't put the caps back on correctly I can only imagine the bottom end not being properly assembled either.

What you can do, is disconnect one coil pack at a time. Sure it will run rough, but disregard. Rev the engine up and see if the rattle gets quieter or even disappears completely. If so it's time to open that bottom end up and investigate.

If it's rod knock... it looks to be doing it on more than one piston... If you listen at the end of the video when it stalls (1:50ish) the knock is too fast for only one piston... Or could this be 2 or 3 main bearing? I heard a lot of rod bearing knock as it's a common problem as you said but I don't remember hearing main bearing "knock" or noise.

Anyway, I would not take any chance and I think the only thing for you to do is open it and check everything...

codyace · 03-25-2013, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by army240

If it's rod knock... it looks to be doing it on more than one piston... If you listen at the end of the video when it stalls (1:50ish) the knock is too fast for only one piston... Or could this be 2 or 3 main bearing? I heard a lot of rod bearing knock as it's a common problem as you said but I don't remember hearing main bearing "knock" or noise.

Anyway, I would not take any chance and I think the only thing for you to do is open it and check everything...

Those videos were before he sorted his oil squirting issue, so I'm certainly in for the next video to really know. Sure you can loose the bearings on multiple holes, but usually it's only one that eats itself up on these engines.

As far as main bearings knocking, I've never ever heard of an SR ruining a main bearing, this side of no oil...and even then I've never ever heard of an SR taking out a main this side of castrophic failure, as they are almost ALWAYS getting fresh oil supply.

KiLLeR2001 · 03-25-2013, 10:41 PM

Loose flywheel.

cotbu · 03-25-2013, 11:11 PM

I don't see the new 5min video, but if it's the same sound? it could be from the cam wear on the rockers.
If you're not frustrated yet you will be, but I'm hoping it's still in the head. I'd like you too examine your cam lobes and rocker arms for excessive wear. Even if you had to replace all the rockers and cams it's still better than a full tear down and rebuild.

Dorifto Machine · 03-26-2013, 03:53 AM

I had someone prime the engine for me while I went under the car and the knock sound happens every time I crank it. I listened and the sound seems to be coming from where the transmission meets the block. I put my ear up against it and a knock sound is very apparent... So me and steven (killer) are thinking it could be the flywheel. But while driving their was no clutch slipping, then again I was shifting under 4 grand.

Dorifto Machine · 03-26-2013, 03:58 AM

*..Double Post

KiLLeR2001 · 03-26-2013, 06:32 AM

If you didn't install the flywheel yourself and the previous owner touched it (judging by the cam cap fiasco), I can almost bet you any amount of money that sucker is loose. It's amazing how many similarities between our builds keep popping up...

Here is my initial post about the problem:
http://zilvia.net/f/builds-builds-on...ml#post4119491

And then the aftermath pictures shown here:
http://zilvia.net/f/builds-builds-on...ml#post4128480

Wasn't that bad because I caught it quickly, but I'd stop driving it if I were you at this point.

Dorifto Machine · 03-26-2013, 09:44 AM

Lucky no, I actually installed the flywheel, clutch and tightened it down pretty well!
However... I cant remember if I put loctite on the bolts. Here was a picture while I was installing it

Here is a video I looked up on youtube and this sounds just like my issue!

KiLLeR2001 · 03-26-2013, 09:55 AM

Yep. Tightening it down "well" or "good enough" is not sufficient for the flywheel. You need to get a big boy torque wrench and torque that sucker to 110ft/lbs tq. with loctite. I would also recommend getting new flywheel bolts if you didn't the last time.

Dorifto Machine · 03-26-2013, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KiLLeR2001

Yep. Tightening it down "well" or "good enough" is not sufficient for the flywheel. You need to get a big boy torque wrench and torque that sucker to 110ft/lbs tq. with loctite. I would also recommend getting new flywheel bolts if you didn't the last time.

Always use a torque wrench dude! I used new bolts.

Is the blue loctite fine?

Debating on pulling the transmission today. Just want closure.

KiLLeR2001 · 03-26-2013, 10:17 AM

I always use red. Never tried blue.

di-devol · 03-26-2013, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KiLLeR2001

I always use red. Never tried blue.

I use blue loctite, I thought the red needed heat to remove lol.

My FW bolts backed out, that's the sound of your clutch hitting the bolts. FW might not necessarily be loose, just bolts backed out.

Try listening at the bell housing with the camera as well.

Dolby109 · 03-26-2013, 02:24 PM

I am wondering if since the top end was half starved of oil for a while the hydrolic lifters (or whatever they are called that the rocker arms sit on) could be deflated, causing valve noise? Might be worth soking them in oil, or at least checking a few to make sure they have the normal feel (spongy I think).
Although your problem does sound exactly like the other video with loose flywheel bolts. I cant understand how that can make such a sound.

It doesnt sound like rod knock really, unless all 4 rod bearings are missing, and it would still be present at idle. I spun a single rod bearing and it was a very loud and distinct knock at idle. Its extra loud on SR's because, with no bearing, the piston hits the head.

codyace · 03-26-2013, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dolby109

It doesnt sound like rod knock really, unless all 4 rod bearings are missing, and it would still be present at idle. I spun a single rod bearing and it was a very loud and distinct knock at idle. Its extra loud on SR's because, with no bearing, the piston hits the head.

Rod knock isn't always present at idle in these cars. My good friends beater car only knocked above 3500 rpm in his sentra. Drove the car that way for over a year until he became unlazy, dropped the cross memeber and pan, and rolled new bearings in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dorifto Machine

Lucky no, I actually installed the flywheel, clutch and tightened it down pretty well!
However... I cant remember if I put loctite on the bolts. Here was a picture while I was installing it

If you go under the car you'll see a little inspection plate on the oil pan held in by two 10 mm headed bolts. Take it out and see if you can jiggle it all.

Those flywheel bolts also shouldn't be reused, and always thread locker and proper torque.

nickauger · 03-26-2013, 03:02 PM

Its clearly a rod knock...

*fliprayzin240sx* · 03-26-2013, 03:18 PM

Somebody who's blown 8 SRs, I say rod knock. It comes on when you lift off the throttle. I bet if you slowly rev it up and hold it, itll be audible like fuck around 3-3.5k. I'd drop the oil pan and check the pan for rod bearings.

I'm curious about something tho, do you have an oil pressure gauge? Considering the engine was rebuilt and who ever put it together couldnt even put the cam retainer on right, I wouldnt be surprised if the rod and main bearings are fucked on the install.

Dorifto Machine · 03-26-2013, 06:26 PM

Update:
Today I got as far as unbolting all the transmission bolts . I also removed the starter.

Instead of testing with the inspection plate, I just reached my hand in the starter hole. Not alot of room obviously but it did feel like the flywheel had slight play in it, though nothing crazy to say its very loose. I don't think ill know till I pop the transmission. Then will move to the bottom end.

fliprayzin240sx: I do have an Oil Pressure gauge, I just re-wired it up yesterday.

I don't know what to say honestly but super exhausted process. So much preparation went into this build, I trusted the buyer so if this is the case and it does turn out to be a busted motor, he ripped me off knowingly or knew something was going on. Trying to stay optimistic but realistic as well.

Future_gohan · 03-26-2013, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickauger

Its clearly a rod knock...

This^

Doesn't sound like a flywheel to me, sounds like the bottom end is gone, drop the bottom pan and look for gold colored shavings.

KiLLeR2001 · 03-26-2013, 10:52 PM

Check the timing chain tensioner if you haven't already, I've seen these things break apart before and a loose chain can also produce this noise.

Dorifto Machine · 03-28-2013, 06:26 PM

KiLLEr2001 and Myself are assessing the situation right now.

From what we can tell, it appears the flywheel might have come loose, transmission is about 70% off, trying to get it to clear the chassis right now with some pain. Will update shortly with the verdict!

codyace · 03-28-2013, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dorifto Machine

KiLLEr2001 and Myself are assessing the situation right now.

From what we can tell, it appears the flywheel might have come loose, transmission is about 70% off, trying to get it to clear the chassis right now with some pain. Will update shortly with the verdict!

Unbolt it, unbolt exhaust/loose throttle body coupler, lower front cross member bolts. Spin transmission upside down once you pull it back a little, and it'll slide right out.

Dorifto Machine · 03-28-2013, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codyace

Unbolt it, unbolt exhaust/loose throttle body coupler, lower front cross member bolts. Spin transmission upside down once you pull it back a little, and it'll slide right out.

Hey man , didn't see this till just now , but we did end up getting it off by undoing the downpipe from the test pipe and with some force we got it off.

Update:Confirmation , the flywheel bolts were indeed loose!
It looks like 1 bolt was holding it on tight !

Tomorrow will be the reassembly of everything with torquing and thread locker! We shall see if this corrects the issue. I'll keep you guys posted.

Dorifto Machine · 03-30-2013, 09:15 PM

Update: ISSUE RESOLVED!

Such a relief has been lifted from my shoulders!!! I want to thank everyone for their time and input. Those that thought the worst , I hope your mind has expanded on possibilities. The issue was indeed the flywheel being loose. Car was tested and drove for a good 15 minutes on the road. No more knocking sound.

Only thing that is acting weird is the car occasionally dies when I put it in Neutral. It seems to lower its idle way below 500.
On regular idle its around 800-1,000 rpm .

KiLLeR2001 · 03-30-2013, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dorifto Machine

[B][COLOR="Red"]
Only thing that is acting weird is the car occasionally dies when I put it in Neutral. It seems to lower its idle way below 500.
On regular idle its around 800-1,000 rpm .

Clean MAF with MAF cleaner, check all your grounds. Is BOV recirculating? Can't remember. Make sure you have absolutely no vacuum leaks anywhere. If all of these check out it could be an IACV issue.

R@ddy · 03-31-2013, 12:48 AM

Thank god you didnt get to drive that shit hard. if that flywheel would of come loose at 7000 RPM, forget about ever walking again.

codyace · 03-31-2013, 07:51 PM

Awesome that you found the issue!

I know it sucks that you have to be the example,but this thread should serve as a reminder to EVERYONE that following the proper FSM torque procedure is crucial. THis could have ended much worse!

cotbu · 03-31-2013, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Update: ISSUE RESOLVED!

good shyt!!

*fliprayzin240sx* · 03-31-2013, 09:47 PM

Well consider yourself lucky, sure as hell sounded like rod knock to me. But then again, its always hard to diagnose something thats not in front of you. Hard to base stuff on a video and sounds that may not be the true representation of whats actually being recorded.

You used loctite red and step torqued those flywheel bolts to atleast 90 ft lbs right?

03-25-2013, 02:04 PM	#31
Dorifto Machine Zilvia Addict Join Date: May 2011 Location: Orlando Fl. Posts: 698 Trader Rating: (17) Feedback Score: 17 reviews	So took it for a test drive , after doing everything we went over. Weird thing is it drives perfect and doesn't have any power loss but sound still present at around 3,000 RPM. Last edited by Dorifto Machine; 03-25-2013 at 06:02 PM..

03-25-2013, 07:20 PM	#32
codyace Post Whore! Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poconos, PA Age: 39 Posts: 8,030 Trader Rating: (58) Feedback Score: 58 reviews	Does it happen repeatably at that RPM? It could also be rod knock then. I was hoping not, but it is a known 'failure type' on these engines. If someone didn't put the caps back on correctly I can only imagine the bottom end not being properly assembled either. What you can do, is disconnect one coil pack at a time. Sure it will run rough, but disregard. Rev the engine up and see if the rattle gets quieter or even disappears completely. If so it's time to open that bottom end up and investigate. __________________ *Want Air Conditioning in your SR20 Swapped car? Check out www.sr20acbrackets.com for more information! Quest Alternator Conversions for SR20!* Check my Group Buy! Tired of lousy internal gates? Go external wastegate with one of my manifolds, Check out my group buy

03-25-2013, 10:41 PM	#35
KiLLeR2001 Post Whore! Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: オーランドフロリダ Posts: 7,955 Trader Rating: (46) Feedback Score: 46 reviews	Loose flywheel. __________________

03-25-2013, 11:11 PM	#36
cotbu Post Whore! Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: SWFL Age: 49 Posts: 3,318 Trader Rating: (3) Feedback Score: 3 reviews	I don't see the new 5min video, but if it's the same sound? it could be from the cam wear on the rockers. If you're not frustrated yet you will be, but I'm hoping it's still in the head. I'd like you too examine your cam lobes and rocker arms for excessive wear. Even if you had to replace all the rockers and cams it's still better than a full tear down and rebuild. __________________ LoverTechnologies "Half Broken Things!"

03-26-2013, 03:53 AM	#37
Dorifto Machine Zilvia Addict Join Date: May 2011 Location: Orlando Fl. Posts: 698 Trader Rating: (17) Feedback Score: 17 reviews	I had someone prime the engine for me while I went under the car and the knock sound happens every time I crank it. I listened and the sound seems to be coming from where the transmission meets the block. I put my ear up against it and a knock sound is very apparent... So me and steven (killer) are thinking it could be the flywheel. But while driving their was no clutch slipping, then again I was shifting under 4 grand. Last edited by Dorifto Machine; 03-30-2013 at 09:19 PM..

03-26-2013, 03:58 AM	#38
Dorifto Machine Zilvia Addict Join Date: May 2011 Location: Orlando Fl. Posts: 698 Trader Rating: (17) Feedback Score: 17 reviews	..Double Post Last edited by Dorifto Machine; 03-26-2013 at 09:24 AM..*

03-26-2013, 06:32 AM	#39
KiLLeR2001 Post Whore! Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: オーランドフロリダ Posts: 7,955 Trader Rating: (46) Feedback Score: 46 reviews	If you didn't install the flywheel yourself and the previous owner touched it (judging by the cam cap fiasco), I can almost bet you any amount of money that sucker is loose. It's amazing how many similarities between our builds keep popping up... Here is my initial post about the problem: http://zilvia.net/f/builds-builds-on...ml#post4119491 And then the aftermath pictures shown here: http://zilvia.net/f/builds-builds-on...ml#post4128480 Wasn't that bad because I caught it quickly, but I'd stop driving it if I were you at this point. __________________

03-26-2013, 09:44 AM	#40
Dorifto Machine Zilvia Addict Join Date: May 2011 Location: Orlando Fl. Posts: 698 Trader Rating: (17) Feedback Score: 17 reviews	Lucky no, I actually installed the flywheel, clutch and tightened it down pretty well! However... I cant remember if I put loctite on the bolts. Here was a picture while I was installing it Here is a video I looked up on youtube and this sounds just like my issue! Last edited by Dorifto Machine; 03-26-2013 at 11:03 AM..

03-26-2013, 09:55 AM	#41
KiLLeR2001 Post Whore! Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: オーランドフロリダ Posts: 7,955 Trader Rating: (46) Feedback Score: 46 reviews	Yep. Tightening it down "well" or "good enough" is not sufficient for the flywheel. You need to get a big boy torque wrench and torque that sucker to 110ft/lbs tq. with loctite. I would also recommend getting new flywheel bolts if you didn't the last time. __________________

03-26-2013, 10:17 AM	#43
KiLLeR2001 Post Whore! Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: オーランドフロリダ Posts: 7,955 Trader Rating: (46) Feedback Score: 46 reviews	I always use red. Never tried blue. __________________

03-26-2013, 02:24 PM	#45
Dolby109 Leaky Injector Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Dayton, OH Posts: 85 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	I am wondering if since the top end was half starved of oil for a while the hydrolic lifters (or whatever they are called that the rocker arms sit on) could be deflated, causing valve noise? Might be worth soking them in oil, or at least checking a few to make sure they have the normal feel (spongy I think). Although your problem does sound exactly like the other video with loose flywheel bolts. I cant understand how that can make such a sound. It doesnt sound like rod knock really, unless all 4 rod bearings are missing, and it would still be present at idle. I spun a single rod bearing and it was a very loud and distinct knock at idle. Its extra loud on SR's because, with no bearing, the piston hits the head.

03-26-2013, 03:02 PM	#47
nickauger Leaky Injector Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Quebec city Posts: 121 Trader Rating: (2) Feedback Score: 2 reviews	Its clearly a rod knock...

03-26-2013, 03:18 PM	#48
fliprayzin240sx Man w/ CTSV & a Car Seat Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Tampa Posts: 17,998 Trader Rating: (19) Rides Gallery: fliprayzin240sx Feedback Score: 19 reviews	Somebody who's blown 8 SRs, I say rod knock. It comes on when you lift off the throttle. I bet if you slowly rev it up and hold it, itll be audible like fuck around 3-3.5k. I'd drop the oil pan and check the pan for rod bearings. I'm curious about something tho, do you have an oil pressure gauge? Considering the engine was rebuilt and who ever put it together couldnt even put the cam retainer on right, I wouldnt be surprised if the rod and main bearings are fucked on the install. __________________ If you think Zilvia has too many assholes... CLICK HERE!!!

03-26-2013, 06:26 PM	#49
Dorifto Machine Zilvia Addict Join Date: May 2011 Location: Orlando Fl. Posts: 698 Trader Rating: (17) Feedback Score: 17 reviews	Update: Today I got as far as unbolting all the transmission bolts . I also removed the starter. Instead of testing with the inspection plate, I just reached my hand in the starter hole. Not alot of room obviously but it did feel like the flywheel had slight play in it, though nothing crazy to say its very loose. I don't think ill know till I pop the transmission. Then will move to the bottom end. fliprayzin240sx: I do have an Oil Pressure gauge, I just re-wired it up yesterday. I don't know what to say honestly but super exhausted process. So much preparation went into this build, I trusted the buyer so if this is the case and it does turn out to be a busted motor, he ripped me off knowingly or knew something was going on. Trying to stay optimistic but realistic as well.

03-26-2013, 10:52 PM	#51
KiLLeR2001 Post Whore! Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: オーランドフロリダ Posts: 7,955 Trader Rating: (46) Feedback Score: 46 reviews	Check the timing chain tensioner if you haven't already, I've seen these things break apart before and a loose chain can also produce this noise. __________________

03-28-2013, 06:26 PM	#52
Dorifto Machine Zilvia Addict Join Date: May 2011 Location: Orlando Fl. Posts: 698 Trader Rating: (17) Feedback Score: 17 reviews	KiLLEr2001 and Myself are assessing the situation right now. From what we can tell, it appears the flywheel might have come loose, transmission is about 70% off, trying to get it to clear the chassis right now with some pain. Will update shortly with the verdict!

03-30-2013, 09:15 PM	#55
Dorifto Machine Zilvia Addict Join Date: May 2011 Location: Orlando Fl. Posts: 698 Trader Rating: (17) Feedback Score: 17 reviews	Update: ISSUE RESOLVED! Such a relief has been lifted from my shoulders!!! I want to thank everyone for their time and input. Those that thought the worst , I hope your mind has expanded on possibilities. The issue was indeed the flywheel being loose. Car was tested and drove for a good 15 minutes on the road. No more knocking sound. Only thing that is acting weird is the car occasionally dies when I put it in Neutral. It seems to lower its idle way below 500. On regular idle its around 800-1,000 rpm .

03-31-2013, 12:48 AM	#57
R@ddy Nissanaholic! Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Zacatecas, Mx; Paramount, Ca Age: 34 Posts: 1,628 Trader Rating: (32) Feedback Score: 32 reviews	Thank god you didnt get to drive that shit hard. if that flywheel would of come loose at 7000 RPM, forget about ever walking again.

03-31-2013, 07:51 PM	#58
codyace Post Whore! Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poconos, PA Age: 39 Posts: 8,030 Trader Rating: (58) Feedback Score: 58 reviews	Awesome that you found the issue! I know it sucks that you have to be the example,but this thread should serve as a reminder to EVERYONE that following the proper FSM torque procedure is crucial. THis could have ended much worse! __________________ *Want Air Conditioning in your SR20 Swapped car? Check out www.sr20acbrackets.com for more information! Quest Alternator Conversions for SR20!* Check my Group Buy! Tired of lousy internal gates? Go external wastegate with one of my manifolds, Check out my group buy

03-31-2013, 09:47 PM	#60
fliprayzin240sx Man w/ CTSV & a Car Seat Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Tampa Posts: 17,998 Trader Rating: (19) Rides Gallery: fliprayzin240sx Feedback Score: 19 reviews	Well consider yourself lucky, sure as hell sounded like rod knock to me. But then again, its always hard to diagnose something thats not in front of you. Hard to base stuff on a video and sounds that may not be the true representation of whats actually being recorded. You used loctite red and step torqued those flywheel bolts to atleast 90 ft lbs right? __________________ If you think Zilvia has too many assholes... CLICK HERE!!!