So, who has the power?

[theicecreamdan]

Arizona bill targeting ethnic studies signed into law - latimes.com

Maybe the slippery slope arguments have some validity in this case.

[ronmcdon]

That's another can worms.
They are talking about cancelling ethnic studies classes.
(Chicano studies specifically?)

I won't disagree with AZ policy there specifically.
I'm skeptical any Liberal Arts classes have any practical value whatsoever.

[Brian]

I think they decided to only mention Chicano classes to add more fuel to the fire. (***LA Times, by the way, see me following thought down below.)

I don't necessarily agree with that new decision, but I kind of see why they did it... sort of. We're supposed to be moving away from racism... but I feel like this country is making racism more popular quite frankly.





Anyways, what is the shit about Los Angeles not doing any business with Arizona? Boycotting Arizona businss? I really hate a lot of people right now for being so stupid. It's unreal.

I am truly amazed at how much shit there is right now to SUPPORT illegal immigrants.
It's like upside down world right now. WTF???


Do people even think at all anymore? It's no wonder the rest of the world is laughing their asses off at the USA right now.

[revat619]

^^^^

EXACTLY.

This country is so retarded sometimes. The bottom line is, as a legal and tax paying citizen, i shouldn't have to pay for an illegal's shit. PERIOD. No matter how "deserving" they feel they are.

[Brian]

I've been thinking about this a lot and I just cannot figure out WHY there seems to be so much support. I can't figure it out.

[ronmcdon]

Why do you think the US is making racism more popular?

About the forementioned classes
My co-worker, who is 3rd gen Mexican, actually took a Chicano studies class recently @ the local city college.
Most of the stuff they taught was more or less was just bashing the US.
It was just really one sided, bias arguments.
It was all criticism and pretty much no praise.
Garbage arguments like they stole from the Mexican government and did terrible things.
No doubt the US did a lot of wrong, but what nation's government did not?

I don't see any value in a class like that.
It just encourages resentment, imo.
My co-worker is kinda pissed that he feels the curriculum is fostering such hostility & being so ungrateful.
I would have to agree, esp given how kids can be so impressionable.

It probably is just an isolated incident.
However, I can appreciate what AZ is trying to do, if they're having the same situation.

Even if you're interested in rediscovering your cultural identity,
I don't see how you need to take a formal college class for that.
Seems like a waste of funding to me (in a time where it's arguably scarce).

[ronmcdon]

Originally Posted by Brian

I've been thinking about this a lot and I just cannot figure out WHY there seems to be so much support. I can't figure it out.

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact there is racial profiling going on.
The bill, or so I get the impression, is targeting Hispanics.

Also, maybe a lot of ppl have relatives/friends who they want to bring over illegally.
As far as I know, a lot of coyotes go through AZ.
Maybe going through other states makes it more dangerous and/or expensive.
Not saying it's right or wrong, just contemplating the practical concerns.

[Gnnr]

Originally Posted by revat619

The bottom line is, as a legal and tax paying citizen

That's it right there. The bottom line. That's why I think the US is going to find a "path to citizenship" solution. 10+ million illegal immigrants. Cost of deporting all of them vs. profit from taxing them. Just my late night conspiracy theory though...

[Brian]

[QUOTE=ronmcdon;3446014]Why do you think the US is making racism more popular?
QUOTE]

How or why?

Why? not sure why.

How?

Well, I don't know but I feel like I see so much these days about race. I thought we were supposed to become more raceless. I feel like more than ever, things are created BASED on race. Channels ,award shows, clothing companies, etc.



I just feel like we're going backwards in some ways.


That's sort of off topic I guess.


Anyways, I want to see The United States of America. I want United States citizens. I want people to be here because they should be. I want them to work and pay taxes (well, it would ben ice not to, lol). Let's be Americans!

I don't want to see "The States of America...somewhat".

This is America. We should make the rules. I'm tired of other people making the rules. It's bullshit.

[Gnnr]

Originally Posted by Brian

How or why?

Why? not sure why.

How?

Well, I don't know but I feel like I see so much these days about race. I thought we were supposed to become more raceless. I feel like more than ever, things are created BASED on race. Channels ,award shows, clothing companies, etc.



I just feel like we're going backwards in some ways.

Ehh. Its the media. They blow everything out of proportion to get ratings. Its sensationalist reporting. Now they use facebook and twitter as "reliable sources" of information, lol. Thats what TV is filled with now, shit news and reality tv shows. Its so ass backwards.

[ronmcdon]

I don't think it'll be a color-blind society anytime soon.
maybe government has the power to enforce this (although I doubt it).

Lot of it is just that ppl identify with those who are similiar.
Race is a divider isn't always the most important, but it is often enough.

Even in the hypothetical situation where we do become "raceless".
Ppl will still be divided by other things like $$$, politics, religion, taste in stuff, and who knows what.
I actually don't think race is as big a deal as a source of resentment as ppl make it out to be.

The media fuels division,
but the media also gives ppl what they want.

[kingkilburn]

I didn't read the thread and I don't intend to.

The problem with the law is that it gives the police the power to ILLEGALLY search seize and detain ANYONE they deem suspicious. What "suspicious" is to broadly defined.

This law is unconstitutional.

What ever your stance on immigration, illegal or otherwise is irrelevant.

Laws like this and Lieberman's proposed new powers for the SecState spell the end of Freedom and Liberty.

[lou's40sx]

sSchools and colleges have created a lot of useless courses that most people will never use. For those of you dumbasses who took French, Latin, and German in high school, I hope your 240sx breaks down in Downtown L.A. and use that shit. I took Spanish in high school and educational classes such as "Los Angeles daily life" as my cultural course.

1. Courses in diversity and ethnic studies are great and all but it just becomes segregation and the formation of clicks, and crews, and gangs will develop. The educational system in the United States should only have 1 history and or diversity course called American History or American Studies because once you're a citizen of the USA, you're American. You shouldn't give a damn about what country you WERE from, you should care about who you are NOW and what you are now, an American. If the country to fled out of was so good, you should stay there and study Chinese history, Mexican history, Zimbabwe~ history (Woot, finally fit in this cool country in a sentence).


2. In addition why would you even take "Chicano course" or anything that relates to "Education" course?
And according to Yahoo article, Worst paying Degrees:

#7 Education Degree: $36,000k
#5 Spanish Degree: $35,000k

With these two premises, I say that fighting for these courses are fail anyway. (Tell your conselor to Substitute Ethnic studies with Logics/Arguementative Philosophy).

[CO240]

Originally Posted by 240XTC

To the subject at hand. Its a simple case of abuse on a good thing. Now regulations will be put into effect. All in hopes to scrounge up every penny. In this case, couple billions of tax payer dollar that are used to educate, medicate, and incarcerate these illegal individuals..

Quote for truth!!


This pretty much sums up where I'm at. I dont understand why it is okay for legal American tax payers to pay the way for people that are breaking the law by being here.

I agree with Brain, how difficult is it to carry a form of identification on you... I'm almost positive EVERYONE on here has been doing just that. I understand it sucks for some people that may be bothered by it. People call it racism, and are concerned for those people's feeling... but in my opinion, the people feelings you SHOULD be concerned for is the people that have become citizens the RIGHT way. How do you think all of this makes them feel? Having to jump through hoops and wait and all that. Then, they finally make it, they are citizens... now you have to pay taxes, pay the way for the other folks that decided to take the short cut, the lazy way, the ILLEGAL WAY. I know I would be pissed.

I havent read through this whole thread, maybe this has been mentioned, but maybe some of you, that live in the area, could shed some light on this story... Michelle Malkin THE AMERICAN FLAG COMES SECOND

...wow

[kingkilburn]

Every one participating in the action shown in the link should be tried for treason but that doesn't make the law in Arizona Constitutional in any manor.

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by kingkilburn

Every one participating in the action shown in the link should be tried for treason but that doesn't make the law in Arizona Constitutional in any manor.

WRONG!!!!!!!!

I am watching TV right now, and a lawyer just cited a RECENT case that went to the SUPREME COURT.

In an 8-0 unanimous decision, the SUPREME COURT ruled that police can stop someone to ask for identification WITHOUT ANY REASON WHATSOEVER.

The new law is actually STRICTER (requiring probable cause or other reason for being questioned) than the federal law which is ALREADY IN PLACE BUT NOT BEING INFORCED AT ALL

[ronmcdon]

Well you can certainly expect this deal to go to court.
A precedent case might increase the liklihood that a similar case will go the same way,
but it's no means a guarantee.

I could care less if ppl think this AZ is Constitutional or not.
Anything remotely controversial has a good chance of going to court.
In the end, it's the Supreme Courts interpretation that really stands.

Ppl were fussing about CA Prop 8 being 'Un-Constitional'.
That went to court & held just the same.

[kingkilburn]

The constitution protects against unwarranted and unlawful search and seizure. Based on that the Arizona law is unconstitutional on the grounds that they need no proof in order to detain and search you.

Prop 8 IS unconstitutional.

[ronmcdon]

Lol, tell that to the judge.

Constitution can always be amended, so it's all for nought.

[kingkilburn]

Well when they amended it it will be lawful. Until then it's garbage.

[amdnivram]

Originally Posted by lou's40sx

sSchools and colleges have created a lot of useless courses that most people will never use. For those of you dumbasses who took French, Latin, and German in high school, I hope your 240sx breaks down in Downtown L.A. and use that shit. I took Spanish in high school and educational classes such as "Los Angeles daily life" as my cultural course.

1. Courses in diversity and ethnic studies are great and all but it just becomes segregation and the formation of clicks, and crews, and gangs will develop. The educational system in the United States should only have 1 history and or diversity course called American History or American Studies because once you're a citizen of the USA, you're American. You shouldn't give a damn about what country you WERE from, you should care about who you are NOW and what you are now, an American. If the country to fled out of was so good, you should stay there and study Chinese history, Mexican history, Zimbabwe~ history (Woot, finally fit in this cool country in a sentence).


2. In addition why would you even take "Chicano course" or anything that relates to "Education" course?
And according to Yahoo article, Worst paying Degrees:

#7 Education Degree: $36,000k
#5 Spanish Degree: $35,000k

With these two premises, I say that fighting for these courses are fail anyway. (Tell your conselor to Substitute Ethnic studies with Logics/Arguementative Philosophy).

I'm just going to have to say that the answer to you question is he-man

Anyway, unless your talking about high school, everything education wise that you just said is just wrong. College is to educate and enlighten, meaning you learn what your interested in. If your interested in learning about other cultures why the fuck not? I mean any class that focuses on a group of people will be bias. Saying that fighting for these courses is stupid because it restricts education and its opportunities. College is a place where you expand your knowledge, its not some restrictive bs map laid out for you that tells you what your going to learn. I didnt take the Chicano class because im just not interested but some might be. Hell with arguments like that they might was well take out any courses that involve non American history/subject.

[Gnnr]

Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Good wiki read. We're turning into a police sate, bye bye freedom.

[kingkilburn]

That is no joke. That is why I'm against prop 8 and this law in Arizona. When you can justify taking one man's rights you can justify taking any rights from any man.

The flood gates are open and it is left to the citizen to stop the hemorrhaging.

[shiftdrift]

yeah, the rights of LEGAL AMERICANS, NOT ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS/ALIENS.

[kingkilburn]

The law is for all people within Arizona. They only find out if you are legal or not after you are illegally detained and searched.

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by kingkilburn

The law is for all people within Arizona. They only find out if you are legal or not after you are illegally detained and searched.

You are a wack-job man.

How is asking someone to show you proof of ID or citizenship DETAINING AND SEARCHING?

I am not okay with cops going into someones house or just cuffing people and throwing them in a car.

I AM okay with them simply asking someone, "May I please see some identification?".

[kingkilburn]

Have you not read the actual law?

They don't have to ask. They can detain on pure suspicion.

[aznpoopy]

*nervous tick

Originally Posted by kingkilburn

They only find out if you are legal or not after you are illegally detained and searched.

legally detained. the problem is pretextual traffic stops are legal (thereby giving officers a blank check on racial profiling, etc.). see: Whren v. United States

Originally Posted by jspaeth

How is asking someone to show you proof of ID or citizenship DETAINING AND SEARCHING?

since Terry v. Ohio, 1968.
counts as a terry stop

Originally Posted by kingkilburn

They can detain on pure suspicion.

on reasonable suspicion, which is a legal standard, not just a cute selection of wording. the problem is that in practice, the cops can pretty much do whatever they want and justify it with made up shit later (similar to pretextual traffic stops)

[kingkilburn]

Detaining some one based solely on the color of their skin IS unreasonable.

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by kingkilburn

Detaining some one based solely on the color of their skin IS unreasonable.

I think there is something wrong with your wiring.

The idea is not to DETAIN someone BECAUSE of the color of their skin. It is that if you are not carrying proof of citizenship, you could be detained, because

THE LAW ALREADY STATES THAT IF YOU ARE NOT A CITIZEN, YOU HAVE TO CARRY PAPERS.


What is the point of carrying the citizenship or green card if no one can ever check it?

You literally have no common sense.