Subaru BRZ = 240sx Successor

[drift freaq]

Originally Posted by simmode1

^^^Ditto on the Genesis coupe...


The Z's price has been steadily ballooning. Weren't Z33 base models like around $26k when they first came out? Now base Z's are around $33k and the next gen is likely to continue that pricing increase trend. No longer can the Z be considered an entry level sports car. Rather than reviving the Silvia name, it would at least be nice if they offered the next Z with a 2.0T option for a base model while the range toppers continue with the current V6 tradition.

Well I do not think Nissan would offer a 4 cylinder turbo Z in the U.S. I could see that possibility in Japan given the Fairlady's history. Though in the U.S. the Z has always been a 6 cylinder sports car. I could see them doing a VQ25HR Z. As for pricing you are off a little Base price is 31k not 33k. I just checked it.
Now for you to speculate they would keep on increasing the pricing trend is purely speculative. I would hazard to say it will quite possibly be a reversal. Reason being will the 370 is great from an engineering and handling perspective it has not sold nearly as well as the 350. Do not think Nissan does not take note of these things.
Also the BRZ is starting at like 26k . So they really could steal some thunder by downsizing a bit and dropping the price a bit.
Who knows this is all theorizing. lol

Originally Posted by Corbic

Yeah... that is is why they are making more power than V8s from just 5 years ago while Turbo-4s are making the same power they did nearly 20 years ago..

Ya I would agree with you here. NA V6's are getting monstrous numbers. People sometimes don't stop to think about it. a VQ37 puts out 337 HP. A LS1 puts out 350 HP . Back in the day V6's turned out around 150-200 HP unless turbo'd. Even Ford has a V6 pushing 300HP. Those are V8 numbers.

There is no way Nissan is doing away with V6's they get great results out of them and they use them all over the product line. I would hazard to say the VQ series engines are the most used engine in Nissan engine product line up.

On the scaled down Z front they could easily do a 250Z with a VQ25HR.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by drift freaq

Ya I would agree with you here. NA V6's are getting monstrous numbers. People sometimes don't stop to think about it. a VQ37 puts out 337 HP. A LS1 puts out 350 HP . Back in the day V6's turned out around 150-200 HP unless turbo'd. Even Ford has a V6 pushing 300HP. Those are V8 numbers.

There is no way Nissan is doing away with V6's they get great results out of them and they use them all over the product line. I would hazard to say the VQ series engines are the most used engine in Nissan engine product line up.

On the scaled down Z front they could easily do a 250Z with a VQ25HR.

The price is more or less inflation based. A 350Z was around 28k new, but then again a WRX was 22k, and a Mustang GT was 25k. Fast forward five years and they all shifted up about $5,000. Weak dollar, ailing economy and strong yen makes for expensive imports.

While the BRZ may be fun, lets not forget it's still a solid notch down below the 370Z, just like the 370Z is still a rung below a 'Vette.

Lets also not forget about the other V8s out there - the old SOHC 4.6 was 225-260hp depending on the year, when the Z came out with 287hp that was

Most V6s today are +300hp anymore, V8's are in the 400's and Turbo-4's are still 200-300hp, not much more then they where at the start of the 90's.

Weight, simplicity and packaging also benefits the V6 engines as well. Sure it sucks that you can't just turn up the boost or swap turbos, but few consumers do that anyways.

Honestly, the Z needs to worry about moving up market, not down market. A Twin-Turbo version in the 40's that can compete with the 'Vette in performance and Caymen in quality is what we really need.

The FBRZS is just a Miata with better styling and marketing. It's not exactly novel.

[word sux]

Originally Posted by Corbic

Yeah... that is is why they are making more power than V8s from just 5 years ago while Turbo-4s are making the same power they did nearly 20 years ago..

Did I say anything about power? No, they have gone the way of the dodo because of emissions and gas milage. With obd3 on the horizon and the emissions standards it will bring for new cars I highly doubt the the next z will be an n/a v6. If anything maybe a smaller displacement turbo vq could be coming down the line.

It's true that the new forced induction 4's are not putting out that much more power then what they used to but the response and torque curve that they can achieve now is pretty incredible.I don't think stuffing a 4 cylinder in a z and trying to make it compete with the brz or other sub 30k sports cars is the answer here. For the next Z they should develop a chassis that can be used for multiple platforms like volkswagen is doing so that they can build multiple cars on one platform without all the extra r and d cost.

[VROOOM]

Originally Posted by drift freaq

Well I do not think Nissan would offer a 4 cylinder turbo Z in the U.S. I could see that possibility in Japan given the Fairlady's history. Though in the U.S. the Z has always been a 6 cylinder sports car. I could see them doing a VQ25HR Z. As for pricing you are off a little Base price is 31k not 33k. I just checked it.
Now for you to speculate they would keep on increasing the pricing trend is purely speculative. I would hazard to say it will quite possibly be a reversal. Reason being will the 370 is great from an engineering and handling perspective it has not sold nearly as well as the 350. Do not think Nissan does not take note of these things.
Also the BRZ is starting at like 26k . So they really could steal some thunder by downsizing a bit and dropping the price a bit.
Who knows this is all theorizing. lol












Ya I would agree with you here. NA V6's are getting monstrous numbers. People sometimes don't stop to think about it. a VQ37 puts out 337 HP. A LS1 puts out 350 HP . Back in the day V6's turned out around 150-200 HP unless turbo'd. Even Ford has a V6 pushing 300HP. Those are V8 numbers.

There is no way Nissan is doing away with V6's they get great results out of them and they use them all over the product line. I would hazard to say the VQ series engines are the most used engine in Nissan engine product line up.

On the scaled down Z front they could easily do a 250Z with a VQ25HR.

first the 370z is $32,280 plus $780 destination, which is a little over $33k. I have no idea where you "checked" and it said $31k.

also the VQ puts out late 90's V8 power, but now everyone makes V8's with 400+hp, not 300hp.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by VROOOM

also the VQ puts out late 90's V8 power, but now everyone makes V8's with 400+hp, not 300hp.

I think you mean Mid-2000's V8 numbers.
So what? Its still more powerful then the "most powerful" Turbo-4s on the market and the car performs admirably.

A $52,000 Cayman makes 265hp. Where is the outrage?

A BRZ that costs $26,000 is only making 200hp - nearly 100hp less then cars that cost $3,000 less.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by word sux

Did I say anything about power? No, they have gone the way of the dodo because of emissions and gas milage. With obd3 on the horizon and the emissions standards it will bring for new cars I highly doubt the the next z will be an n/a v6. If anything maybe a smaller displacement turbo vq could be coming down the line.

Uh huh... So Nissan and every other manufacturer is going to kill the V6 engine because the Government will receive a heads up when your car is failing emissions in real time.

Do you even have the slightest clue on the packaging and material costs of incorporating a turbo into a production car? I suspect if anything, Nissan is already developing a VQ-series replacement, something cheaper to build, with more displacement options and a larger utilization of polymer technologies.

The Z does not produce enough sales to warrant its own unique chassis and power-train development. It will continue to hare chassis, engines and parts with Nissan's luxury and car lines.

Originally Posted by word sux

It's true that the new forced induction 4's are not putting out that much more power then what they used to but the response and torque curve that they can achieve now is pretty incredible.I don't think stuffing a 4 cylinder in a z and trying to make it compete with the brz or other sub 30k sports cars is the answer here. For the next Z they should develop a chassis that can be used for multiple platforms like volkswagen is doing so that they can build multiple cars on one platform without all the extra r and d cost.

OMFG a Responsive Turbo 4?! Beyond aftermarket tuning I still fail to see the benefit. A V6 or V8 is going have practically double the power output with less packaging constraints, less cost and greater reliability and superior driving response.


Where have you been for the last 2012 years? The Z has been riding the same chassis as the G-series since the 350Z came out, it also uses the same damn motor and running gear. Volkswagen is the last person Nissan should be copying. Hell Volkswagen has not had a "sports car" since the early 90's and what a failure the Corrado was.

[Corbic]

Watch out class, this is the future of V6 engine design.



300hp, VVT, E85 and 87 Octane, no PVC system, 260ft ft/tq at 4,500rpm


Yes kids, the exhaust manifolds are integrated into the heads. This is a reduction of cost, parts and weight.

[future]

Moar pictures of exhuast coming from the heads

[Corbic]

GM's new DI 3.6 is also the same way.

[nisco]

[word sux]

Originally Posted by Corbic

Uh huh... So Nissan and every other manufacturer is going to kill the V6 engine because the Government will receive a heads up when your car is failing emissions in real time.

Do you even have the slightest clue on the packaging and material costs of incorporating a turbo into a production car? I suspect if anything, Nissan is already developing a VQ-series replacement, something cheaper to build, with more displacement options and a larger utilization of polymer technologies.

The Z does not produce enough sales to warrant its own unique chassis and power-train development. It will continue to hare chassis, engines and parts with Nissan's luxury and car lines.




OMFG a Responsive Turbo 4?! Beyond aftermarket tuning I still fail to see the benefit. A V6 or V8 is going have practically double the power output with less packaging constraints, less cost and greater reliability and superior driving response.


Where have you been for the last 2012 years? The Z has been riding the same chassis as the G-series since the 350Z came out, it also uses the same damn motor and running gear. Volkswagen is the last person Nissan should be copying. Hell Volkswagen has not had a "sports car" since the early 90's and what a failure the Corrado was.

Are you illiterate? I never said all 6 cylinders, I said most n/a high performance 6 cylinders will be going to the way side. Turbochargers have become much much cheaper then what they used to be when they were reserved only for limited production sports cars. I didn't not say the Z should have its own unique chassis, if you had read what I posted I said they should make a chassis which many cars could be based off of like what volks wagen is doing (this includes porsche) so they can lengthen and widen as well as shorten a narrow it so it may be used in a wide range of cars, hence making a small sports car more feasible. I was not just more or less talking about VAG not just volkswagen, this includes porsche.

[VROOOM]

Originally Posted by Corbic

I think you mean Mid-2000's V8 numbers.
So what? Its still more powerful then the "most powerful" Turbo-4s on the market and the car performs admirably.

A $52,000 Cayman makes 265hp. Where is the outrage?

A BRZ that costs $26,000 is only making 200hp - nearly 100hp less then cars that cost $3,000 less.

the LS1 came out in 97. by 2005 the LS1 was out and the 400hp LS2 was in.

i would never buy a Porsche so i dont really care about a Cayman.

just remember our 240's cost almost 26k back in 1998(probably over 30K with in todays market).

[Matej]

Saw a group of BRZ's and FR-S's parked together in front of a restaurant.
In person, both cars look the same.

I thought it funny that the owners are having meets already.

[Corbic]

Fuck your marked up BRZ local dealers have FRS on the lot - $25,xxx no bullshit pricing.

[JustSlide]

Didn't alot of people say the same about the Hyundai Genesis?

[BarrigaS14]

Originally Posted by Corbic

Watch out class, this is the future of V6 engine design.



300hp, VVT, E85 and 87 Octane, no PVC system, 260ft ft/tq at 4,500rpm


Yes kids, the exhaust manifolds are integrated into the heads. This is a reduction of cost, parts and weight.

This is old already. BMW already came out with a twin turbo V8 in 2008...







A 240sx would cost about 26-30k in today's dollars. And remember, that is for the same KA, 140hp, 5spd car some people think is worth 12k stock...today....

Back on topic, the reason I like these cars is because of what I was wanting to do with my 240sx. I wanted to rebuild the engine, supercharge it and get about 200hp...but now, I can get that without the headache with more features. All I need to do is wait until they come on the used market or wait until there are some discounts.

The 240...now might get a V8...

[drift freaq]

Originally Posted by Corbic

While the BRZ may be fun, lets not forget it's still a solid notch down below the 370Z, just like the 370Z is still a rung below a 'Vette.

Lets also not forget about the other V8s out there - the old SOHC 4.6 was 225-260hp depending on the year, when the Z came out with 287hp that was

Most V6s today are +300hp anymore, V8's are in the 400's and Turbo-4's are still 200-300hp, not much more then they where at the start of the 90's.

Weight, simplicity and packaging also benefits the V6 engines as well. Sure it sucks that you can't just turn up the boost or swap turbos, but few consumers do that anyways.

Honestly, the Z needs to worry about moving up market, not down market. A Twin-Turbo version in the 40's that can compete with the 'Vette in performance and Caymen in quality is what we really need.

The FBRZS is just a Miata with better styling and marketing. It's not exactly novel.

well just to note since people are mentioning Caymens aka Boxsters with roofs. Nissan actually did not target the Corvette with Z they were actually going after the two Porsches listed above . This is actually was quoted by Nissan officials in press releases when the 350Z was made.

I think people are losing sight in this discussion. Nissan Already has a car that competes with the Vette and the 911 . The GTR.

Honestly I don't think Nissan has ever looked at Z's as Corvette Competitors. They have always positioned them against Porsche's and that goes straight back to the 70's with the 240Z.

I have already stated the fact that in the U.S. the Z is and always will be a six cylinder car. I also do not think given current sales numbers they want to try and push it upstream price wise.

Nissan already has their top end car with the GTR, The Infiniti G series lands inbetween the Z and GTR last thing they would want to do would be move it upstream and have it competing directly with the G series in pricing.
Add to the fact that its already been noted in Automotive publications that Nissan has been thinking and talking about downsizing the Z.

Originally Posted by VROOOM

first the 370z is $32,280 plus $780 destination, which is a little over $33k. I have no idea where you "checked" and it said $31k.

also the VQ puts out late 90's V8 power, but now everyone makes V8's with 400+hp, not 300hp.

You obviously fail at car shopping. lol I found it with a quick web search. As far the VQ putting out late 90's V8 power. You see a 335 HP engine as being lacking for a V6? lol

You really like to extrapolate as well. Seriously dude for all intensive purposes a 335HP V6 is in V8 HP territory period. If you study V6's in the 90's they were lucky to get 300HP with Turbo's.

You are really just trying to argue semantics here.

Plus we are getting way off the main topic is the BRZ a 240sx successor.

[usdm180sx]

I don't consider more weight and more power more upmarket. That's like paying more money for more power and weight. Keep it light and simple hence FR-S/BR-Z > 370z. Or Lower weight and higher power to weight ratio > more weight with the same power to weight ratio. If you want prestige buy a high end car.

[DJ-of-E]

Originally Posted by KiLLeR2001

Nissan will revive the Silvia if the BRZ/FR-S does well. I can almost guarentee it.

Originally Posted by Zilmatic

^ Possibly if the economy and market for these kinda cars get better.... hopefully they wont fuck it up like what mazda did with the rx-8

Pretty much sums of my thoughts.

However, I don't not want a 240sx successor. I really do not want a RWD 2.5L N/A from Altima's engine. I want my turbo-4 silvia successor.

Originally Posted by usdm180sx

I don't consider more weight and more power more upmarket. That's like paying more money for more power and weight. Keep it light and simple hence FR-S/BR-Z > 370z. Or Lower weight and higher power to weight ratio > more weight with the same power to weight ratio. If you want prestige buy a high end car.

I wouldn't dock 370z's weight just yet. It may be 500lbs heavyier, but it handles very well for its weight. The 370z is borderline C and B class. BMW E46 M3 is around 3,500lbs, but it handles stupidly well.

Whether the 370z doesn't seem to be an upgrade to you, to me, any sports car you get under $35000 is considered affordable (I got my 40th for 33k OTD). At least Nissan took the risk and balls to continue making a "sport car" line when Toyota was busy making hybrids.

As much as I can't see myself trading my Z for a BR-Z, I really do hope it does really well because the current trend of car sales for "sporty cars" under the 35k range since 1995 is pretty scarily declining. I also believe this is why there was so much marketing hype back then for Hyundai Genesis and now with the FR-S, especially the tuner scene. To me, I would think a failure on the FRS/BRZ would also mean the end for Nissan's "silvia" and "z" line.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by usdm180sx

I don't consider more weight and more power more upmarket. .

Isn't the 370Z the lightest Z in almost 25 years?

Z31s are not exactly light or nimble.

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by DJ-of-E

Whether the 370z doesn't seem to be an upgrade to you, to me, any sports car you get under $35000 is considered affordable (I got my 40th for 33k OTD).

Average car sold in the US is close to $31,000 anymore.

Inflation is a bitch.

Really a Z is only a few grand more then a V6 Camry.

[BustedS13]

the BRZ is sold out? did they make way less BRZ's than FRS's? because the Toyota dealership up the street has quite a few just sitting around.

[ManoNegra]

Originally Posted by BustedS13

the BRZ is sold out? did they make way less BRZ's than FRS's? because the Toyota dealership up the street has quite a few just sitting around.

yes, don't quote me but according to a friend they're only making ~6,000 BRZs worldwide this year.
Most if not all have been claimed by pre-orders.

[VROOOM]

Originally Posted by drift freaq

You obviously fail at car shopping. lol I found it with a quick web search. As far the VQ putting out late 90's V8 power. You see a 335 HP engine as being lacking for a V6? lol

You really like to extrapolate as well. Seriously dude for all intensive purposes a 335HP V6 is in V8 HP territory period. If you study V6's in the 90's they were lucky to get 300HP with Turbo's.

You are really just trying to argue semantics here.

Plus we are getting way off the main topic is the BRZ a 240sx successor.

the MSRP of the 370z is over $33k, sure you can find cars for cheaper than that but MSRP is a what the price is. i bought a brand new Evo X in 09 for $28,500 does that mean thats how much Evo X's cost? No, i just got a great deal.

the VQ puts out V6 numbers for today. Ford, Chevy, Hyundai, Dodge, Chrysler and Nissan all make 400+hp V8's and they all make 300hp V6's. the VQ is an Average V6.

[K_style]

Originally Posted by VROOOM

the VQ puts out V6 numbers for today. Ford, Chevy, Hyundai, Dodge, Chrysler and Nissan all make 400+hp V8's and they all make 300hp V6's. the VQ is an Average V6.

I agree on this..

I do not feel special for VQ much. Sure it is great engine but everybody else has same or better performance in very similar platform.

Too bad mustangs dont come with EcoBoost V6. I'd be more interested than 5.0 V8

[DJ-of-E]

Originally Posted by K_style

I agree on this..

I do not feel special for VQ much. Sure it is great engine but everybody else has same or better performance in very similar platform.

Too bad mustangs dont come with EcoBoost V6. I'd be more interested than 5.0 V8

I also concur about the VQ as well considering the only benefit you get is a wider powerband with extra 800RPM. With extra $12k, I'd take the Boss Mustang with its V8 hitting 8000RPM range and suspension that put the Nismo 370z to shame.

[Matej]

A 200-250hp RWD 4-cylinder from Nissan would be nice. The lighter/smaller, the better.

Are there any such recent inline-4 motors? The only one I know is the F22C.

[fliprayzin240sx]

Originally Posted by Matej

A 200-250hp RWD 4-cylinder from Nissan would be nice. The lighter/smaller, the better.

Are there any such recent inline-4 motors? The only one I know is the F22C.

Juke's MR16DDT turbo engine wouldnt be a bad start...

[DJ-of-E]

Originally Posted by fliprayzin240sx

Juke's MR16DDT turbo engine wouldnt be a bad start...

I remembered with the S16 rumors using a 1.6L turbo and I thought "hey, that sounded really a nice idea!"

[feito]

jukes look like dog poop imho, dont care how fast theyre making them. Wish i could afford a new car, then i would take these cars into consideration, unfortunately not until another few years..