STL Riots

[TMW]

Originally Posted by theronin

What about it?

Are you serious?

[Corbic]

Originally Posted by TMW

Are you serious?

Regardless of whatever - People need to understand a few things.

Most officers are poorly trained when it comes to using a fire-arm. Departments typically require some in class training and annual qualification. Qualification is typically shoot 5 rounds into a man-size target at 15 feet and demonstrate you can reload and properly draw your weapon.



There is also the adrenaline factor. Everyone is yelling, tense, weapons draw and "pop". This is why most cops struggle when asked "who fired first" or "why did you fire"? Someone fired... then they all fire, many times pulling the trigger until the target is visually down or they are out of ammo.

30 years ago out of ammo met 5-7 shots total. (Revolvers, 1911). Today, out of ammo means 12-17 shots... each. This is why you see "cops fired 37 times..." or "suspect shot 6 times".



Notice these are all terrible shot placement. It was not like the cop shot him 6 times in the chest. Those arm wounds are non-life threatening and would have done little to deter a close range assailant. Also, in the video, notice how fast those shots are fired. It's not long-range sniper stuff. Popopopop..... *guy falls down*

This isn't to excuse any of these cops - it's to explain why this stuff happens the way it does.

Several studies actually showed cops accuracy dropped dramatically with the transition from Revolvers to Semi-Autos and accidental firing, injury and other such incidence have increased.

http://americancopmagazine.com/legac...ied-revolvers/


This will blow your mind - China will start letting police cary fire arms...
http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2...ke-any-others/

[Corbic]

Another thing worth noting, as the news is bitching about it...

Black Cops.

The news made a squawk about how there are not enough black cops in Fergy land. Back in school we covered this general problem ad nauseam as there has been lots of research in the last 30 years on it.

A. It's hard to find qualified canadits. To be a police officer you have to graduate high school, have a clean police record, never have done drugs (been caught), be at least 20-21 and many areas now require some form of a post high school degree.

1 in 15 Black men is in jail and 1 in 3 is likely to be arrested at some point in his life. Those individuals that do qualify - having remained out of trouble, gone to school entered college - typically want NOTHING TO DO WITH Law Enforcement. They see better opportunities else where.

B. It doesn't do shit. Black offers actually play right into the stereo type of "cops go easy on whites and hard on colors". This is two fold -

First it's the "your making us look back" mentality. A black cop worked hard together and likely has an axel to grind with all the gang-bangers and trouble makers from his home town. He's not about to cut some punk slack just because they share skin-tone. Many interviewed officers say they are just tired of these kids and trouble makers making the community look bad. Additionally, black officers don't want to make trouble, so they often go easier on white suspects because last thing they want to deal with is a "omfg mean black cop yelled at my blonde daughter" non-sense.

Second - Brotherhood. For any cop, fellow cops become family. For black officers, blue becomes the new skin tone. Their fellow cops, whether white or brown or black mean more then whatever racial community they come from and they act accordingly.

C. Uncle Tom - believe it or not, while the communities often cry how unfair it is and how they want more representation from their own racial group - those cops from the area that are that same genetic background then get treated like crap. Many of these communities hate the police and to see a "black man" acting like a "white cop" just enrages them as a "kid from the suburbs coming into the hood" does. These black officers get treated especially harshly and in turn grow bitter to their own community which goes back to Reason A and B

D. Fuck this shit : Politicians often want cops to be from where they police. Thats cool in a nice upscale community* but as a cop, the last thing you wan to be is living next to the meth house or gang-club that you just raided. Worse yet, you know what a shit hole areas are so you don't want your family anywhere near it. It's a safety issue. So even if you higher local black officers, they quickly get the hell out of dodge.

Basically 30 years of research shows that the issue is not one of race. People assume a black-cop will get along with an understand a black community better. The problem isn't skin color but culture and context. A black cop is still a cop and sees the world as a cop. The community, regardless of race, still sees the world the way they do - so gang bangers are still bangers, hipster and tree huggers are still pussies and meth heads are still tweakers. So no mater what, that divide still exists.

* it's also hard to "community police" upscale areas as cops can't afford to live in those areas - but then we don't hear people crying about needing more cops to live in those communities...

[Matej]

Originally Posted by TMW

Are you serious?

There are a bunch of other black people in the video. How come they did not shoot them all for no reason?

Suicide by police is actually more common than one may think. Legally, they have a right to shoot you for the slightest movement indicating you are intending to touch them or reach for their weapon. Yes, it is kind of silly how scared they apparently are of everyone, but at the same time people should know better than to approach them when being screamed at not to.

The guy had a knife by the way, if you cannot tell from the video.

[TMW]

Originally Posted by Matej

There are a bunch of other black people in the video. How come they did not shoot them all for no reason?

Suicide by police is actually more common than one may think. Legally, they have a right to shoot you for the slightest movement indicating you are intending to touch them or reach for their weapon. Yes, it is kind of silly how scared they apparently are of everyone, but at the same time people should know better than to approach them when being screamed at not to.

The guy had a knife by the way, if you cannot tell from the video.

Yes, I read he had a knife. I didn't say if anything about the officer's legal right to shoot the man.

Obviously, there will not be any repercussions for killing the man because it was justified and the right thing to do...

If you seriously think that the best way to handle that situation was to fill the guy full of lead just because he walked toward them then maybe you should pursue a career in law enforcement. There was definitely no way the officers could have diffused the situation or used non-lethal force. Right?

Quick edit: As far as this being a racial incident, I don't really think it is. If the guy was white they would have probably shot him just as many times.

[Matej]

Originally Posted by TMW

If you seriously think that the best way to handle that situation was to fill the guy full of lead just because he walked toward them then maybe you should pursue a career in law enforcement. There was definitely no way the officers could have diffused the situation or used non-lethal force. Right?

Originally Posted by ixfxi

cop A and B never thought once of shooting the guy in the leg?

its a fucking KNIFE, not a nuclear bomb. cap the guy ONCE in the leg, he's down and out... problem solved.

nope. lets kill the motherfucker.

The ironic thing is that my brother just graduated from the police academy a few weeks ago and the guys in the video did everything they were taught by the book. This is exactly the kind of stuff they trained. Take out the threat as quickly as possible with multiple shots to make sure they do not retaliate. Do not aim for the legs because it is a tough shot to make in the heat of the moment, plus while you are looking down you can lose track of what they are doing with their hands. Apparently when someone is pumped full of adrenaline, it may take multiple shots in the legs to take them down, which is especially risky when they are a few steps away from you, or whatever, I am not the expert.

I never said I agree with their methods. In fact, I find most of them ridiculous and over the top and I think police officers act like sissies who are constantly afraid of everyone so they shoot as soon as someone looks at them wrong, just in case. But at the same time, if you think that you can approach a cop with a knife and they are going to baby talk you out of it or something, then good luck. Why give them a reason to point their guns at you in the first place?

[TMW]

Lol, I was just reading over this thread and thought, "Either Matej or someone in his family is a cop..."

So, The Atlantic posted an article about the incident that quoted another journalist who said what I have quoted below. I think it somewhat captures what I think about what happened. And about the police "baby talking you out of it", the police should have some skills in talking to people who are agitated and angry and know how to not make a bad situation that much worse. The police should protect and serve not just kill a guy and drag his corpse off when someone calls about a disturbance/domestic dispute.

The police arrive and instantly escalate the situation... Powell looks sick more than he looks dangerous. But the police draw their weapons as soon as they exit their car... They don't seem to know how to stop Powell, save for using deadly force. But all Powell had was a steak knife. If the police had been in their car, with the windows rolled up, he could have done little to hurt them...

...Even when he advances on police, he walks, rather than runs... He swings his arms normally, rather than entering into a fighting stance. They begin yelling at him to stop. And when they begin shooting, they shoot to kill—even continuing to shoot when Powell is motionless on the ground. There is no warning shot, even. It does not seem like it should be so easy to take a life.

[zeitgeist]

Originally Posted by theronin

You wouldn't be glad these riots were happening if they were in your town.

No I wouldn't, however if its for the good of the nation and the rights of the people, i'd for damn sure be out there protesting as well, my neighborhood or not

Originally Posted by Matej

The guy was some scumbag hooligan wannabe thug and I am pretty sure the officer did not just decide to shoot him for no reason. Bet all the individuals painting Michael Brown as a saint are the same people who would think twice about sitting next to him on public transportation late at night.
I am against the police as much as the next law-abiding resident, but this is not the right incident to rally behind.

I don't give a damn if he was a scumbag, a saint or whatever. Police don't have the right to act as executioner of an unarmed civilian. A lack of police accountability leads to the perversion of the law
And no this may not be the ideal event to act behind, but it's waking up the nation to the idea of police militarization and excess of force

Originally Posted by evilpanamajack

Black people are the real racist.

everyone is racist

Originally Posted by ixfxi

im just surprised at the discussion here....

dude got shot and killed... i mean, cops filled him full of lead.

so.

cop A and B never thought once of shooting the guy in the leg?

its a fucking KNIFE, not a nuclear bomb. cap the guy ONCE in the leg, he's down and out... problem solved.

nope. lets kill the motherfucker.

Mace would have been quite efficient. Or a tazer. But cops like to use bullets in the poor communities more

Originally Posted by Matej

The ironic thing is that my brother just graduated from the police academy a few weeks ago and the guys in the video did everything they were taught by the book. This is exactly the kind of stuff they trained. Take out the threat as quickly as possible with multiple shots to make sure they do not retaliate. Do not aim for the legs because it is a tough shot to make in the heat of the moment, plus while you are looking down you can lose track of what they are doing with their hands. Apparently when someone is pumped full of adrenaline, it may take multiple shots in the legs to take them down, which is especially risky when they are a few steps away from you, or whatever, I am not the expert.

I never said I agree with their methods. In fact, I find most of them ridiculous and over the top and I think police officers act like sissies who are constantly afraid of everyone so they shoot as soon as someone looks at them wrong, just in case. But at the same time, if you think that you can approach a cop with a knife and they are going to baby talk you out of it or something, then good luck. Why give them a reason to point their guns at you in the first place?

Escalation of force is the answer. How often do most police use this anymore? They don't have to because they get away with shooting a motherfucker in the dome as first response.
Lack of accountability from the public

Originally Posted by theronin

This isn't the movies you don't aim for the legs or arms. Cop shoots someone in the leg, he gets sued. You don't approach a cop brandishing a knife either.

I completely agree. If someone comes at you with a lethal weapon, kill the asshole
Vid of the most recent shooting. 9 shots? Plenty of time for a tazer
http://www.vox.com/2014/8/20/6051377...Kajieme-Powell

[theronin]

Originally Posted by zeitgeist

No I wouldn't, however if its for the good of the nation and the rights of the people, i'd for damn sure be out there protesting as well, my neighborhood or not


I don't give a damn if he was a scumbag, a saint or whatever. Police don't have the right to act as executioner of an unarmed civilian. A lack of police accountability leads to the perversion of the law
And no this may not be the ideal event to act behind, but it's waking up the nation to the idea of police militarization and excess of force


everyone is racist


Mace would have been quite efficient. Or a tazer. But cops like to use bullets in the poor communities more



Escalation of force is the answer. How often do most police use this anymore? They don't have to because they get away with shooting a motherfucker in the dome as first response.
Lack of accountability from the public


I completely agree. If someone comes at you with a lethal weapon, kill the asshole

So many contradictions in your post.

[VROOOM]

Originally Posted by Matej

The ironic thing is that my brother just graduated from the police academy a few weeks ago and the guys in the video did everything they were taught by the book. This is exactly the kind of stuff they trained. Take out the threat as quickly as possible with multiple shots to make sure they do not retaliate. Do not aim for the legs because it is a tough shot to make in the heat of the moment, plus while you are looking down you can lose track of what they are doing with their hands. Apparently when someone is pumped full of adrenaline, it may take multiple shots in the legs to take them down, which is especially risky when they are a few steps away from you, or whatever, I am not the expert.

I never said I agree with their methods. In fact, I find most of them ridiculous and over the top and I think police officers act like sissies who are constantly afraid of everyone so they shoot as soon as someone looks at them wrong, just in case. But at the same time, if you think that you can approach a cop with a knife and they are going to baby talk you out of it or something, then good luck. Why give them a reason to point their guns at you in the first place?

exactly, eliminate the threat

[1 88 U]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFddlI9QHJk#t=18