Will 240s and Sr20dets will still be popular in another 20 years?

[240sx_sr20det]

Ofcourse this was with proper maintenance in mind...not the Ebisu/Aussie special. ��

[Future240]

In none drifting applications the SR seems hard to match in terms of ease and reliability.

Like that guy here that has like 200k on his notchtop.

My only interest in drifting is simply learning car control. Some of us just want a street machine that we can have fun with.

[RalliartRsX]

Originally Posted by Future240

In none drifting applications the SR seems hard to match in terms of ease and reliability.
.

And that the thing; predominantly the only folks who bitch about the SR are drifters. Simple.

Step out of the tiny world which is drifting, and the landscape changes. The Aussies have been campaigning non VVL SRs with great success.

I personally have had great success with SRs as trackday weapons.

[jdm_land]

Originally Posted by Future240

In none drifting applications the SR seems hard to match in terms of ease and reliability.

Correct. There aren’t to many decently priced 4 cylinder RWD swaps that are easy to drop in and enjoy. Matter of fact the Sr20det is actually really good if you consider your other options. Which are next to none; if you have the money, time and skills, someone could go Toyota 20v or S2000 swap.

Why the hell can’t we make FWD Sr20det VVL into RWD with a adopter plate or something. That is bull. K series engines can be made RWD

[jdm_land]

Originally Posted by RalliartRsX

And that the thing; predominantly the only folks who bitch about the SR are drifters. Simple.

Step out of the tiny world which is drifting, and the landscape changes. The Aussies have been campaigning non VVL SRs with great success.

I personally have had great success with SRs as trackday weapons.

Maybe people wouldn’t bitch so much if the Sr20det was actually produced in the USA and we had a stock pile of them. Japan and Australia have been playing with Sr20dets a lot longer then us and can probably find them in their local junk yard.

[CamryOnBronze]

Originally Posted by jdm_land

Maybe people wouldn’t bitch so much if the Sr20det was actually produced in the USA and we had a stock pile of them. Japan and Australia have been playing with Sr20dets a lot longer then us and can probably find them in their local junk yard.

While this is definitely true and is probably a factor, I feel like the "It's so hard to get parts for SR20s" argument is almost out the window these days. So many companies produce aftermarket replacement maintenance parts and so many of these engines have been brought over to the states by now. The world is smaller than ever these days and RHD Japan and Jesse Streeter can get you just about any OEM Nissan part you desire in a matter of days. It's still not as easy as going to AutoZone and buying something for your KA or LS, but it isn't all that hard anymore either.

Not sure this is even what you are really trying to say here, but I thought it was relevant to the conversation either way. lol.

[jedi03]

Jdm land...i have been told they bolt right up just the distributor hits the firewall...if they do have COP and I'm mistaken then an adapter plate should be something you do and make some big bucks!

[RalliartRsX]

Originally Posted by jdm_land

Correct. There aren’t to many decently priced 4 cylinder RWD swaps that are easy to drop in and enjoy. Matter of fact the Sr20det is actually really good if you consider your other options. Which are next to none; if you have the money, time and skills, someone could go Toyota 20v or S2000 swap.

Why the hell can’t we make FWD Sr20det VVL into RWD with a adopter plate or something. That is bull. K series engines can be made RWD

As Damion as said above; engine manufacturer location has zero to do with the inherent drift issues with the SR. SR works great doing everything else

Also, They already make a VVl swap kit. Overall not a cheap swap, but by the time you blown an engine due to the rocker arm breaking and having to replace the engine, you are already at the price of a simple swapped VVL.
Not to mention my time is worth money.....and not to mention not missing a track day (several hundred $$$) due to a broken rocker and you are well above the price of a simple swap VVL.

[economix]

I believe the only thing that will be popular in the future for 240SX, is stock, cherry, unmolested vehicles. The influx of motor swaps and a lot of heavy mods being made (ie holes int he body) will hurt their value and what a collector would want is the stock version in the rare colors.

I don't think the SR will help the value of a USDM vehicle let alone other swaps.

Just like other collector car markets, buyers want stock or something with a respected racing lineage. 240s with the SR swap will be deemed 'retro-mods' or the likes.

All IMHO of course. I say all that because our cars are no different than other cars and there are known frameworks for this sort of discussion.

[brndck]

1: s30 is NOT RARE (at least near me in socal). I still see plenty of them driving around, just regular people cars, in total unrestored and unmodified condition. the present trend of people paying $25-30k for bone stock ones is nuts.

2: if people would stop parting out every damn 240 they can get their hands on, then clean chassis will still be readily available in 15-20 years, but since that seems to be a fucking business model.......

[RalliartRsX]

Originally Posted by brndck

1

2: if drifters would stop wrecking or missiling out every damn 240 they can get their hands on, then clean chassis will still be readily available in 15-20 years, but since that seems to be a fucking business model.......

Fixed

Atleast if parted out, a clean shell is still available. The minute it is wrecked, all bets are off and I for one (in addition to many other people) won't touch it.

[jdm_land]

Originally Posted by CamryOnBronze

While this is definitely true and is probably a factor, I feel like the "It's so hard to get parts for SR20s" argument is almost out the window these days. So many companies produce aftermarket replacement maintenance parts and so many of these engines have been brought over to the states by now. The world is smaller than ever these days and RHD Japan and Jesse Streeter can get you just about any OEM Nissan part you desire in a matter of days. It's still not as easy as going to AutoZone and buying something for your KA or LS, but it isn't all that hard anymore either.

Not sure this is even what you are really trying to say here, but I thought it was relevant to the conversation either way. lol.

No, not really lol. Correct, parts are not a issue by any means. I was talking about whole engine sets. Like how we can find KAs in junk yards; other countries have SRs in junk yards. I’m sure in Japan and Australia they aren’t paying $3000 for a 25 year old red top.

Originally Posted by RalliartRsX

As Damion as said above; engine manufacturer location has zero to do with the inherent drift issues with the SR. SR works great doing everything else

Also, They already make a VVl swap kit. Overall not a cheap swap, but by the time you blown an engine due to the rocker arm breaking and having to replace the engine, you are already at the price of a simple swapped VVL.
Not to mention my time is worth money.....and not to mention not missing a track day (several hundred $$$) due to a broken rocker and you are well above the price of a simple swap VVL.

I am talking whole FWD VVL engine with RWD transmission. Is this really possible. Can someone bolt a RWD SR20DET transmission to a p12 engine or Xtrails? Not just the head swap. I can get the a p12 swap for $2200.

If all we need is a adapter plate then all our problems are solved.

[RalliartRsX]

Having an engine in the junkyard or available doesn't fix it's the inherent issues.......Unless you are referring to development, which the point is moot as it has already been developed properly across the world and the US. Availability hasn't affected the Mazworx guys from going 7s and making 1500+ HP on a VET........

Also, to put a P12 (or P11) into the RWD chassis there would be a fair amount of changes

- Engine mounts. The Engine mounts are at the timing side of the block
- Bell housing and starter (sure you can make an adapter, but you have to weld up the starter hole. Also, the starters bolt up to the block differently as compared to a RWD SR)
- Coolant necks would have to be changed out
- Upper and lower oil pans (FWD does not have upper oil pan baffle or bossed to screw one in)
- In addition to all the other items which need to be addressed when doing a VVL RWD swap (CAS and distributor don't fit, etc etc)
- Why??

A boosted P12 or P11 would be a bit of a pain due to smaller ring lands and much higher compression (10.3:1 and I think 11:1).
You could go with a xtrail, but no vvl on exhaust cam

So yeah, why reinvent the wheel?? So now you have spent a few thousand on just fabrication and you still have a small ring land, high compression stock VE block with a non baffled oil pan......lol

[DRIFTER-M]

Originally Posted by RalliartRsX

Fixed

Atleast if parted out, a clean shell is still available. The minute it is wrecked, all bets are off and I for one (in addition to many other people) won't touch it.

I think you discount to some degree how much a ton of people kill them without drifting. The s13 is particularly prone to rust, for example, and fairs pretty badly in the US. I know many people who drift and have super clean cars - the issue I believe is a bit more to do with general upkeep and pride. Stateside, we have moved away from that. Cars have become basically disposable. In Japan (among other places) there is still a great bit of pride in what you own. They tend to simply have better upkeep.

%99 of the shells I find are garbage, regardless of drifting. That's just the new norm with the s-chassis. It was a cheap car, that cheap people buy and cheaply destroy. Drifting doesn't have as much of an influence on that as I think you believe. IMO of course.

[jdm_land]

Originally Posted by RalliartRsX

Having an engine in the junkyard or available doesn't fix it's the inherent issues.......Unless you are referring to development, which the point is moot as it has already been developed properly across the world and the US. Availability hasn't affected the Mazworx guys from going 7s and making 1500+ HP on a VET........

Also, to put a P12 (or P11) into the RWD chassis there would be a fair amount of changes

- Engine mounts. The Engine mounts are at the timing side of the block
- Bell housing and starter (sure you can make an adapter, but you have to weld up the starter hole. Also, the starters bolt up to the block differently as compared to a RWD SR)
- Coolant necks would have to be changed out
- Upper and lower oil pans (FWD does not have upper oil pan baffle or bossed to screw one in)
- In addition to all the other items which need to be addressed when doing a VVL RWD swap (CAS and distributor don't fit, etc etc)
- Why??

A boosted P12 or P11 would be a bit of a pain due to smaller ring lands and much higher compression (10.3:1 and I think 11:1).
You could go with a xtrail, but no vvl on exhaust cam

So yeah, why reinvent the wheel?? So now you have spent a few thousand on just fabrication and you still have a small ring land, high compression stock VE block with a non baffled oil pan......lol

I’m referring to the price of SRs, if they were everywhere they would be cheaper. In all reality, we should only be paying like $1500-2250 for SRs depending on mileage and condition. Not $3000+.


If your looking for a 800hp drift machine, a Sr20det is a bad option.

IMO, The Sr20det is ment for <500hp and track racing.


And thank you very much for that info. That’s the kinda info I’m looking for. I wouldn’t be worried about the compression. I run E85. I was meanly wondering if anyone has ever tried making it work. But as you just explained, that is wayyyy to much work.

[jdm_land]

Look at what people go through to restore classic cars. Some of them start with rusted and wrecked cars. I don’t think we will ever have hardcore enough 240sx fans in 40 years doing ground up restoration on a numbers matching 240sx lol

[jumpman2334]

Originally Posted by brndck

1: s30 is NOT RARE (at least near me in socal). I still see plenty of them driving around, just regular people cars, in total unrestored and unmodified condition. the present trend of people paying $25-30k for bone stock ones is nuts.

just because you see 'plenty of them', doesn't mean they aren't 'rare' (a better term to use is 'harder to find'). you have a shitload of people around you, more so than anywhere in the entire united states (with maybe the exception of NY?). statistically speaking you will always see more than, say, someone in north Dakota (extreme example to make my point).


bone stock classics, even unrestored (as long as its a good canvas to start with), will always be some of the most desirable form of that specific car. would you want a stock 240 or one that has been F'd with to oblivion and back? the smog exempt thing in CA is weird too because most people know that a pre 76 car does not have to be smogged, so that is also used as a bargaining chip to drive up the price.


some of these cars remind me of the older truck market. ive been looking for a30ish year old 4wd truck and good god are the prices all over the place. that's what I see when im looking at s30s, 510s, etc. they are only going to go up in price.

[Future240]

I don't think unmolested S-chassis will go for that much as collector cars. Lets be honest here. A stock KA 240sx is ok to drive but its far below a lot of other cars. Most enthusiast would prefer it to make more than 155 crank HP. Its not Miata nimble. It is basic. The S-chassis basically needs mods to accentuate its base features.

[RalliartRsX]

Originally Posted by Future240

I don't think unmolested S-chassis will go for that much as collector cars. Lets be honest here. A stock KA 240sx is ok to drive but its far below a lot of other cars. Most enthusiast would prefer it to make more than 155 crank HP. Its not Miata nimble. It is basic. The S-chassis basically needs mods to accentuate its base features.

HP is not what determines collectability. History, want and rarity have a lot more to do with it than HP.

Old Air cooled Porsches are fairly anemic. That doesn't prevent someone from paying 6 figures for one

The E30 M3 with a non Evo 4 banger made less than 200 HP. 30-50K for a clean example currently. The Evo 2 S14 engine cars fetch more (and were never available stateside).......a lot more (130-145K +) and only makes 217 HP.

Old School Muscle (market has died off) are all 5000+ lb barges with big block V8s that are useful only for a smoke show and drive like a tug boat. 6 figures for some.

So yeah, the 240SX has zero history in the US outside of drifting. Actually, that goes world wide as well.

[Future240]

Originally Posted by RalliartRsX

HP is not what determines collectability. History, want and rarity have a lot more to do with it than HP.

Old Air cooled Porsches are fairly anemic. That doesn't prevent someone from paying 6 figures for one

The E30 M3 with a non Evo 4 banger made less than 200 HP. 30-50K for a clean example currently. The Evo 2 S14 engine cars fetch more (and were never available stateside).......a lot more (130-145K +) and only makes 217 HP.

Old School Muscle (market has died off) are all 5000+ lb barges with big block V8s that are useful only for a smoke show and drive like a tug boat. 6 figures for some.

So yeah, the 240SX has zero history in the US outside of drifting. Actually, that goes world wide as well.

I don't mean it just has low HP. I mean all those cars you mentioned are likely a blast drive it their own ways.


The stock s-chassis is.....boring. It is uninspiring in most ways. Nevermind the snore fest that is the KA. The stock form is not great handling. It is just ok.


Now once coils, arms, lsd is added then it wakes up but then that wouldn't be stock. Which is my point a bone stock S-chassis (Im referring to an s14 as I have not driven an S13) is pretty to look at boring to drive.

[dorkidori_s13]

S-Chassis w/KA is a VERY different car than S-Chassis w/SR20det

still to this day, any time i drive an S13/S14 with a KA... it just never feels right. i remember when i did my first SR swap back in 2003, the car felt SO much better to drive with 210hp instead of my stupid single cammer slammer. for the first time, my S13 actually felt RIGHT.

[jumpman2334]

Datsun 510s were called the poor mans bmw and were not all that desirable at one point in time. now look at them and the premium they can fetch. they never had 155hp and were very 'basic'. ive never driven one, but my money is they drive (in stock form) 'boring', 'uninspiring', and a 'snore fest'. (using Future's words to drive my point)


not saying this guarantees that 240s will be desirable in the future. although, I think with the hype today, it will continue somewhat into the future.

[DRIFTER-M]

Originally Posted by jumpman2334

Datsun 510s were called the poor mans bmw and were not all that desirable at one point in time. now look at them and the premium they can fetch. they never had 155hp and were very 'basic'. ive never driven one, but my money is they drive (in stock form) 'boring', 'uninspiring', and a 'snore fest'. (using Future's words to drive my point)


not saying this guarantees that 240s will be desirable in the future. although, I think with the hype today, it will continue somewhat into the future.

It was a different time and had a different splash though. There isn't many well built 4 door "fun cars", it was an ushering of an era that is longed for still (but I would still consider it a niche community).

The 240sx is kind of a launch in the hey day of 2 door "enthusiast" cars. It has a good bit more competition in it's age range, especially being it was during the hay day of Japanese sport cars.

I don't have a horse in that argument either way though. I think the 240sx will be inflated / sought after, but I don't put it far in line with other cars that are truly "collector" vehicles. Many of those were produced in far lower numbers and had a far larger cultural impact. Not that the s-chassis didn't / still doesn't have a splash, it's literally my favorite chassis of all time and I am completely bias since being in my first one in the mid 90s, but still.

Originally Posted by dorkidori_s13

S-Chassis w/KA is a VERY different car than S-Chassis w/SR20det

still to this day, any time i drive an S13/S14 with a KA... it just never feels right. i remember when i did my first SR swap back in 2003, the car felt SO much better to drive with 210hp instead of my stupid single cammer slammer. for the first time, my S13 actually felt RIGHT.

I will agree with DorkiDori here though, I think the sought after ones will be properly restored/ clean s-chassis with mild mods. Stock just isn't going to cut it unless we are talking about a showroom spec 2 tone coupe or Lavender or something. A mildly built and well executed SR 240sx will be the "grail" IMO, just from a purist/ enthusiast standpoint and with the combined cultural splash of the SR motor.

I will say though, I somewhat miss the nostalgia of running KAs hard until you could afford a SR swap. I think it made us appreciate and value the SR more and more once we got them lol. I believe it was Matt Panic ( I could be wrong) yeaarrrsssss ago that use to compete with a NA KA and he drove it like a MAD MAN.

[RalliartRsX]

Originally Posted by jumpman2334

Datsun 510s were called the poor mans bmw and were not all that desirable at one point in time. now look at them and the premium they can fetch. they never had 155hp and were very 'basic'. ive never driven one, but my money is they drive (in stock form) 'boring', 'uninspiring', and a 'snore fest'. (using Future's words to drive my point)


not saying this guarantees that 240s will be desirable in the future. although, I think with the hype today, it will continue somewhat into the future.

1 word in regards to the 510: TransAm. Well maybe two more words; Giant Killer.

The 240 has no history to fall back on.

[jdm_land]

Originally Posted by DRIFTER-M

A mildly built and well executed SR 240sx will be the "grail"

In 20 or 30 years from now I wonder how much something like this would sell for? Would anyone be willing to pay $25k+ for such a car.......


Iv seen Japanese classic car auctions and old Skylines sell for $100k+ ( I don’t think we can compare 240 with Skyline though)

[RalliartRsX]

Originally Posted by Future240

I don't mean it just has low HP. I mean all those cars you mentioned are likely a blast drive it their own ways.


The stock s-chassis is.....boring. It is uninspiring in most ways. Nevermind the snore fest that is the KA. The stock form is not great handling. It is just ok.


Now once coils, arms, lsd is added then it wakes up but then that wouldn't be stock. Which is my point a bone stock S-chassis (Im referring to an s14 as I have not driven an S13) is pretty to look at boring to drive.

BMW was a turd to drive actually. The Porsche was a widow maker. The Muscle car was overall a piece of shit apart from the 1000lb big block stuffed between the fenders.

But the common theme is emotion (and well history in terms of the M3 and Porsche). Kids who lusted after these vehicles now have enough disposable income to buy what the heart desires to relive the wonder years. That's why a DC2 type R USDM went for $60+K recently. One of the greatest handling FWD of all time, however they really do not stack up well against any of the current offerings.

When kids who couldn't afford a 240 grow up, want to relive their wonder drifter years and have real disposable income, prices will jump

Outside of race breed cars, that is another main reason why cars become collectable. Supply and demand. And when all the drifters are finished, supply will go way down, and when one rich kids decides he wants to pay 60K for a clean 240, everyone's ears perk up and suddenly prices skyrocket. That is exactly why the E30 M3 went from a sub 8-10K vehicle to a 40+K vehicle literally overnight. One single personally literally drove the prices up.

[jumpman2334]

Originally Posted by RalliartRsX

That is exactly why the E30 M3 went from a sub 8-10K vehicle to a 40+K vehicle literally overnight. One single personally literally drove the prices up.

Good example with the m3 e30, i still cant believe how pricey they are. The same thing is happening with the MK4 supra. These things can take a couple of months or years to climb, but it does not happen 'literally overnight'


although you are flat out wrong to attribute this to one person. like you said, supply and demand.

[[240sx]]

S-chassis & the SR will always be popular.

waiting for the thread... '300zx, will people eventually give a shit?'

[RalliartRsX]

Originally Posted by jumpman2334

Good example with the m3 e30, i still cant believe how pricey they are. The same thing is happening with the MK4 supra. These things can take a couple of months or years to climb, but it does not happen 'literally overnight'


although you are flat out wrong to attribute this to one person. like you said, supply and demand.

As I said, literally (relatively speaking) "over night".

https://www.hagerty.com/articles-vid...ht-5-years-ago



I will try to dig up the info, but in general several key sales occurred during that time frame which skyrocketed the prices. The E30 M3 was overweight, didn't produce a whole lot of power and even during 2014, there were many to go around. A good friend of mine actually bought one and sold it a few years before the frenzy hit. Fair, not exactly one person, but in general, that is exactly how things played out. Someone (or a few people) came in and wanted the vehicle so bad, they were willing to pay 400%+ on market value and that is how the snowball started

In addition, same shit happened with the Aircooled Porsches. No one wanted anything to do with those widow makers until a few key sales skyrocketed the prices not but 2-3 years ago.

[DRIFTER-M]

Originally Posted by jdm_land

In 20 or 30 years from now I wonder how much something like this would sell for? Would anyone be willing to pay $25k+ for such a car.......


Iv seen Japanese classic car auctions and old Skylines sell for $100k+ ( I don’t think we can compare 240 with Skyline though)

I don't think $25K, and I don't want to even take a guess.

But relative to their market price / window price, I think they will fair ok. But I am talking about the 1% of s-chassis. It's going to be hard to find that, again - cheap car attracted cheap people who did cheap things.

Very few people who own a s-chassis today have actual pride or history with the chassis, they just want it to be like a Rockstar Energy or Monster Energy car, or they watch a lot of "Tuerck'd" and think that his 300HP+ middle hatch is the same as their rattle can 200HP went knock missle.

I guess the abbreviated version, IMO of course, is that a lot of people are into 240sx and drifting because it's "cool", and not because of the art or passion. I think we are seeing a purging of this, which is why there is a constant dialogue of divide between people regarding FD and grassroots, but yeah.