is ground control suspension worth it?

[WilloW]

Originally Posted by fromxtor

^^ Yes the Koni shocks have a threaded area at the base, So the bolt goes right through the strut to the shock. I cant take better pics later.

Please do, I would love to see it.

[McCoy]

Originally Posted by Wiisass

But anyway, I like the 8611, the 8610 is also good, but the compression curve didn't match the numbers I was looking for the last time I ran the numbers. But I think it was for an 600/500 setup.

The 8610's cost me $330 shipped where as the 8611's were around $650 IIRC. Also, Koni just recently revalved the 8610's to closer match the 8611 valving, that was the deciding factor for me to go this route.

As for the rear, I'm not sure if the off the shelf yellow is the best option. I mean it will work, don't get me wrong there. But I just wish there was something a little more comparable in price and quality to the 8611 for the rear. But Koni doesn't offer any twin tube, double adjustable shock that would work for the rear for approximately the same price. You could always use a strut insert in the back and it should work fine.

Agreed, but it's what I currently have laying around and will use it until I can afford another set of 8610's for the rear.

As for ground control, just look at what I posted before. If you guys are that into this and want to save some money, you can find sleeves, collars and hats other places and then get Hypercoils springs from a lot of places and it will probably come in a good bit less than ground control. I'm not saying buy the ebay crap, but there are a lot of good quality pieces out there that will work for this.

My GC kit, I've had since 2001... it was originally purchased for a B13 sentra I had, but never used. Used GC kits can be had for as little as $150 and springs $50 a set if you shop around. I have 8 sets of springs ranging from 300# springs to 550# springs to play with on my S13.

[Wiisass]

The 8611's shouldn't have been that much more. I think pricing was like 160 list for the 8610 and 250 list for the 8611. It is more money, but more adjustability. And it's not that the compression curve is that off, it's just that it's a little softer than I like, but it's also not as digressive as I like so it ends up being a decent compromise. But the rebound curves are very similar. It's just the 8611 can get me the compression values I wanted because of the extra compression adjustability.

I have no problem with ground control. I just see this progress with people starting to look past JDM stuff and onto other better solutions, but again, they're getting obsessed with brand names. On stuff like shocks it's one thing. And even springs, there are good springs out there and there are bad springs out there and there's a lot in between. That's why I always tell people to run Hypercoils if they're going to run anything. I'm sure Eibach is also decent, but I have heard some things about them not being close enough to the advertised rate and I have used Hypercoils and tested them myself so I trust them. But you know what I'm saying.

[McCoy]

I just checked my source, the 8611's are $550 a pair shipped. When I stated the 8610's were revalved, they are now more digressive from what I've been told. I agree that the 8611 is worth the extra money and if I didn't limit my budget for the overall build of the car, I'd have them on the garage floor instead of the 8610's. Also, I'm not in any competitive class...

Eibach springs seem to be easy to find, I do agree that the hypercoil springs are nice... I'm sure I have a set of those on my Silkroad coilovers that are on the car currently, the past owner was playing with spring rates before I took over the car.

[driftfreek]

i just started road racing and i came to the point in which i cannot drive on stock shocks and sportlines anymore. i heard that ground control its a good setup so i decided to start looking into it. so far it seems like its the way to go. ive gotten a lot of info from this thread ( thanks guys) but im confused on some things. for example whats the 8611 and 8610? on the first pic, that black housing, is it part of the koni shock? where can i find info about valving and dyno?

and if i were to order right now a GC, what would the complete list of things be?

[Wiisass]

Mccoy, hypercoils are just as easy to get, if not easier, than Eibach. HRP, CDOC, Coleman, etc are all good places to get hypercoils.

Driftfreek, the 8610 and 8611 are Koni strut inserts. The koni yellows are the direct replacement, oe-fit dampers that most people use with the ground control sleeves. The 86 series, takes more work to fit, but is a more adjustable damper. They are inserts that go either into your stock strut housing or a custom made housing.

[McCoy]

Originally Posted by Wiisass

Mccoy, hypercoils are just as easy to get, if not easier, than Eibach. HRP, CDOC, Coleman, etc are all good places to get hypercoils.

I meant on the used market, I've picked up 4 sets of eibach springs locally or through the nissan forums recently, I typically don't see hypercoils *used* when I've looked...

The 86 series, takes more work to fit, but is a more adjustable damper. They are inserts that go either into your stock strut housing or a custom made housing.

The housings I posted earlier were built from scratch for the 8610/8611 series.

[driftfreek]

so are the 86 series more towards track only and not really dd n track sometimes? what is the price difference b/w the 86 series and a normal koni for an s13?

[McCoy]

^^^ I drive my car daily (only a couple of miles), and aceinhole also drives his car on a somewhat daily basis. The setup (koni/GC) that I going to should be more comfortable on the street than what I'm currently using (Silkroad coilovers).

The housings that I posted earlier cost me $350 for the pair. The 8610-1437 Race inserts cost me $330 for the pair. New GC hardware (sleeves, threaded perch, springs, and tophats) typically go for $400... but as stated earlier can be sourced for less with some shopping. That just leaves camber plates/pillowmounts and any misc pieces to get everything together. Oh yeah, koni yellows for the rear (not sure on the price) or a custom housing with an 86xx insert... which the housings should cost the same as the fronts.

[Wiisass]

Unless you are running super high spring rates, if you have a properly valved damper, it can be fine on the street. It will probably be a lot less harsh than the JDM stuff that people have become accustomed too. For example, different car, but still, on my brother's supra running my setup with 1000lb/in springs in the front and 600lb/in springs in the back is more comfortable on the street than all of the JDM coilovers I've driven on and it handles better.

[driftfreek]

is there anywhere where i can see or read how to instll a 8611 koni shocks in a 240? the price of the 8611 are almost the same as the koni sports (single valved), i mind as well get the 8611 where i can adjust my compression and rebound. also, how do you know what spring rate to choose? 470F, 350R or 500F 400R? so far im going by what coilovers have. what can be better for road racing?

[Wiisass]

What spring rate you want to run depends on a lot of variables. What does the car weigh, where are the roll centers, cg height, what sway bars do you have available, what wheels, what tires, etc? If you're going to go with something like the 8611 it would be worth putting in th effort to get these variables and either figure it out yourself of pay someone to design a good setup for you.

[Iceman00]

I have GC's on my car, and Love them. 350lb in front, and 400lb in rear running on Tokico Blues. At first, I thought I'd have issues with my struts, because supposedly, they are under-damped. Not the case, and I'm starting to wonder if you guys are Over Damping your cars with the Koni Struts?


Not to thread jack, but they are noisy as hell though.

[driftfreek]

is there anyone in this forum who can help me with my variables so i can get a great suspension setup?

[ManoNegra]

Question Wiisass:
Could the shocks and springs be replaced on these bargain-bin coilovers with quality components to give an awesome set-up that can be 2 way height adjustable?

[WilloW]

Originally Posted by ManoNegra

Question Wiisass:
Could the shocks and springs be replaced on these bargain-bin coilovers with quality components to give an awesome set-up that can be 2 way height adjustable?

Aceinhole already thought of that, but then he went with the custom case for the Koni instead. I would like to see someone go through with it though.

[Wiisass]

Originally Posted by driftfreek

is there anyone in this forum who can help me with my variables so i can get a great suspension setup?

I can and can also, most likely, get you all the pieces you would need to have a good setup. If you're interested shoot me a PM.

Originally Posted by ManoNegra

Question Wiisass:
Could the shocks and springs be replaced on these bargain-bin coilovers with quality components to give an awesome set-up that can be 2 way height adjustable?

By bargain bin, you're talking, D2, Megan, etc? If so, I don't think it would work. Something like the 8611 is already pretty thick, so putting a threaded housing around it and finding a threaded lower mount that it will work with is going to be hard. But you really don't need 2-way height adjustability if you design the setup properly. If you're making housings for the 8611 then you have some freedom in determining the overall length of the strut assembly. So then you would be able to use the spring perch for minor changes and corner weighting and the car will still sit where you want and you will maintain enough suspension travel. But if you wanted to have a lot of pieces custom made, you could make a double height adjustable setup. But it would take a lot of work and a lot of design. I actually have a setup like this already drawn up and just about ready for manufacture, but decided to try a different route first. Because making all the pieces for my own coilover would get a little expensive just to try. I wish I had the funds to just do it, but that's not the case.

So best bet to get the car to sit the way you want and maintain suspension travel would be to have custom mounting made for the 8611 inserts front and rear. I don't know how much it's going to cost, I also wonder if the rear shock body would be big enough to house the insert. If so, then it might have just gotten easier.

Tim

[TheConstipated]

Koni+GC are superior to any budget coilover. And you can get them custom valved for any custom rate you like. THE ONLY problem there is with say OTS koni yellows and gc is you can't really drop them that low. There are tricks to make it go lower than "normal" but maximum drop is around 1.5-2" or you will have very little shock travel and be going into "bump" travel.

Koni does make shorter shocks for going lower but it costs more. And I don't believe they make the spss3 for nissans the last time I checked?? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Anyway, honestly, I don't care much because I'm no pro and can't tell the difference between a set of Kbees or Stances. 750 vs 1100. They ride the same and I save about 300 bucks. Budget coilovers are all basically the same. If you're serious about performance....think about some shortened custom valved konis with some custom spring rates to match the type of driving you're doing. Otherwise....Kbees will you suit you fine =).

[veilside180sx]

OK....there is some good information and some bad information in this thread.

I made the strut housings for both PJ (aceinhole) and Monty (McCoy), as well as the OEM based version of Fromxter's.

I can thread the housings on the outside to use an adjustable lower mount, but frankly i think it's a waste. It is an additional cost as well, which is the other reason I don't do it. It adds to the bling factor, but not the functionality of the housing. The flanges are welded where most people would wind up putting it anyway, therefore keeping people from screwing it up. (which neither of the two that have posted would)

Fromxter's are a OEM based S13 yellow which will perform great for a street/autox/HPDE based setup. 400-450 is about the max i would run on this setup without revalving. This setup is considerably more cost effective for the average person than the 8611/8610 setup. The returns on the latter is definately worth it, but you have to be willing to part with your money.

These will basically outdo 99% of the stuff to come out JDM land (basically anything any of you will get your hands on=P If KBee's, D2, KSport, Tein, Tanabe suit you...then you really haven't ever driven a real setup imo.

I have to say it's been a looooong time since i've posted here...lol

[Wiisass]

Originally Posted by veilside180sx

400-450 is about the max i would run on this setup with revalving.

Based on dyno plots or experience? I was in touch with Koni motorsports people last week and he didn't have plots for them. But if they did at one point and someone has them, I would love to take a look at them.

[veilside180sx]

Originally Posted by Wiisass

Based on dyno plots or experience? I was in touch with Koni motorsports people last week and he didn't have plots for them. But if they did at one point and someone has them, I would love to take a look at them.

I don't have plots for them right now...they died with my old comp, but mostly based on personal experience. (I meant w/o revalving...doh)...fixed it.

If they are revalved they will handle close to a 600 lb spring from what I recall. I very much prefer the curve of the 86** series though.

[kouki_s14]

those of you who claim Japanese coilovers are better than Koni's READ

http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.html

Here's a little clip of the site

Originally Posted by Dennis Grant

Remember this list:

Bilstein
Penske
Koni
Ohlins
Sachs
Dynamic Suspension

Not on this list? Almost certainly crap.

Perhaps I should elaborate a little.

For a while, I was the shock engineer for a race team, and was designing, building, and rebuilding shock packages for customers. A big part of this service was running customer shocks on the dyno to set a baseline for where they were currently at. I dynoed a couple of hundred shocks, representing the spread of almost every shock brand extant.

(All the shock dyno plots on this page came off my dyno.)

Amazingly, save those brands mentioned in that earlier list, this was a non-stop parade of horror, including, but not limited to:

-Adjusters that did absolutely nothing;
-Adjusters that had more crosstalk effect than they had primary effect (ie, a rebound adjuster where 1 click made a 10% change in rebound and a 30% change in compression);
-Adjusters that were nonlinear and exponential;
-Adjusters that peaked in the middle of the adjustment range (in one example, "full hard" was softer than "full soft");
-Shimstacks assembled upside-down;
-Sets of shocks where a front and rear shimstack had been exchanged;
-Shocks valved with forces that were insane (1600 lbs/in @ 3 in/sec was the record);
-Shocks that faded so fast that no two runs were ever alike;
-Shocks with adjusters that varied by 10% on the same shock at the same setting, depending on if you got there by going harder or softer; and
-Shocks that adjusted rebound and compression in lockstep, but had so much compression that backing them down to reasonable levels made rebound way too soft (very common with the Japanese brands like GAB, JIC, Tein, etc)

The only shock brands I worked with that actually did what they said they would do were the shocks on that list - and even then, they had their quirks:

Learn something before you talk

I'm curious to see what this guy thinks of Zeal, anyone have input on Zeals vs the brands on that list?

[fromxtor]

^^ Thanks Rich for sensing this thread needed you, this is the guy fellas for all your custom needs.

And here is how you do it for those who are hardcore DIYers:
http://www.koni-na.com/pdf/boltstrut.pdf

[Aoshi112]

i'm surprised we keep having these threads pop up and have the same things said over and over. I must have posted the link to dennis grant's suspension advice more than a few times. Lets just make this a sticky and keep it growing! There's tons of new information that people need to know about properly valved shocks vs jdm coilovers.

Hey Wiiass, you got PM!

[SochBAT]

Now just ask veilside180sx REALLY kindly to see if he'd make you a custom strut housing, and you're set.

BTW, what would you charge for one of those? Hypothetically.

Because if you DID make em, people WOULD eat em up. Esp. after this thread.

[soreballz]

Originally Posted by MavericStephenc

I wouldn't do it.

spend the cash and do it right the first time with a nice set of coils. a friend of mine learned the hard way.

Originally Posted by driftfreek

but theyre expensive. like 700 bux, plus GC 350 bux, you mind as well get coilovers.right?

Originally Posted by firelizard

Don't bother.

Might as well just get a coilover system where the damper and spring are matched to work in unison, and made just for your car. It's not like proper coilovers are that much more money than high quality struts and Ground Controls.

It's not that GC is a horrible system, but what's the advantage? Penny pinching ftl.

Originally Posted by PRADOgy

I think i seen some ground control's for sale at BIG LOTS ^__^

Originally Posted by B Love

Dude just get a good set of coilovers.

Originally Posted by racepar1

DO NOT get ground control coil over sleeves! The 240s don't have enough suspension travel to stick a threaded sleeve in there, you WILL bottom out. Invest in a set of coilovers, even megan's will be significantly better than the cheap ground control crap.

Morons, all of you.
I wish I wasn't out of rep. lol

Konis/GC are awesome. Great handling, smooth ride, relatively low cost... Hell yeah.

[veilside180sx]

The gentlemen that stated the 240 has limited shock travel is actually correct, to an extent. They have enough travel with a stock spring, but really don't for a run of the mill lowering spring, as they are too low and too soft to do much of any good.

The stock 240 shock is just under 13" (shock housing itself). All of the Koni's that I put together are shorter than the OEM setup. Fromxter's are 12.5" iirc, and the Koni 86** are 11.75" What that means is that you are gaining back 1.25" of travel or almost 1/2 of what the car had originally. Obviously no one is going to rock the 4x4 look with an aftermarket setup, but it allows you to maintain sufficient shaft travel and safely lower the car.

The Sentra by nature suffers from an almost indentical front end setup, from a limited travel point of view. On the Sentra we use a Maxima insert (which is what I'm currently running on my turbo B14). The Maxima insert installed in a housing is just a hair under 12" installed. This insert would work great for the 240 as well, but it requires that the shock be removed from the car (or at least the camber plate and spring removed) to be adjusted. To adjust you have to bottom out the shaft to the bottom of the shock and rotate counter clockwise (firm) and clockwise (soften) The Maxima insert will handle a 450 lb spring as well. (I have a 440 spring on mine currently)

Now I'm sure someone will bring up about having dual height adjustability offsets needing to lose "shock" travel because you don't have to use the spring perch for height adjustments. The issue isn't necessarily just stock travel, but I have not driven a JDM setup yet that had enough compression travel.

Dual height adjustability is a gimmick to allow cheap manufacturers the ability to sell the same shock over a spread of vehicles. 99% of the time, the shock is not revalved for different vehicles, like most assume, and it is just slapped from one to the next. The damping for most JDM/Taiwanese setups don't have a broad enough curve to handle different spring rates (not mention what they do have is not remotely ideal either). Have you ever wondered why almost every JDM setup comes with the same spring rates...even for different chassis? Most don't even care if it is multi link, mac, or double wishbone setups.

Some pictures of the various setups to help visualize how things are setup:

OEM based setup (Maxima insert)



Unfinished housing w/o flange installed:



8611/8610 Housing



How low my Sentra currently sits:

[wannabe_drifter]

I'd like to know more about valving...

I do not know anything about shock/springs. Not too long ago, I still though coilovers we're the best option for suspension but been reading more and more and I am learning (as stated here alot !!) that a good shock spring combination is way better...

I will probably look to upgrade my suspension eventually, maybe next summer if the wallet permits it !!! So I will now be looking for a shock/spring combo.

Many people on here talk about custom valving, and spring rates (??? : 8kg, 6kg, 7kg) So in short what I am wondering is :

How to match spring rates well with the valving, or basically how to choose a shock/spring combo that are gonna match one another really well looking at spring rate vs shock valving (also considering weight of a stock S13 in my case) ???

Also what should I base my decision on to get a softer or harder spring ??? (still considering I do not have any shock yet)

[McCoy]

Originally Posted by sochbat

Now just ask veilside180sx REALLY kindly to see if he'd make you a custom strut housing, and you're set.

BTW, what would you charge for one of those? Hypothetically.

Because if you DID make em, people WOULD eat em up. Esp. after this thread.

I posted up the price earlier and am fairly sure he'll have more housings available soon enough.

fromxtor - I just realised those are my old koni yellows that you have... Richard sold them for me and it seems your the new owner

[fromxtor]

^^Well thanks, I hope to be using them soon.