is ground control suspension worth it?

[Wiisass]

Spring rate and how stiff you can go on a given shock depends on the shock valving. So a Koni yellow for the s13 may be valved differently than one for the s14 and the valving of the shock and the weight of the car and some other factors determines what spring rate you can run and what damping ratio you will end up with. Damping ratio is the normalized way of looking at how the car will settle after an input and how the damper will absorb the spring energy.

And you guys should keep in mind that ground control isn't your only option. Unless I'm wrong, ground control just sells sleeves, perches and springs, which you can get many other places. Of course you have to get the right diameter sleeve for whatever shock you're going to run. Koni makes sleeves for their shocks, Bilstein does as well and there are tons of circle track places that sell sleeves that would probably fit a lot of these dampers. I'm not say that I'm positive that a random spring sleeve you find somewhere is going to fit whatever shock you want to use, but there will be a lot out there that will wor for what you want it to do. I don't have any problems with ground control, I just wanted to point that out because it seems like people think it's something different than just a "coilover kit" with an eibach spring. But I do like hypercoils better than eibach just from personal experience and from feedback from other people.

As for a coilover being matched with spring rate and valving. Everyone likes to forget that mass has a lot to do with what valving is needed for a given spring rate on a given car. So a 2400lb car will need different valving than a 3000lb car with the same springs. And from what I've seen a lot of the JDM stuff isn't valved that great to start.

But back to the Koni's, to know what spring rates you would want to run, you really need to get a dyno plot. Or at least call Koni and talk to someone in their motorsports department. They should be able to give you an idea of what you want to run. And if you want to run something out of the range, there is always the option of sending them out to get revalved. This does add to the cost, but in the end you will have a better suspension setup than you could've bought off the shelf.

Tim

[racepar1]

DO NOT get ground control coil over sleeves! The 240s don't have enough suspension travel to stick a threaded sleeve in there, you WILL bottom out. Invest in a set of coilovers, even megan's will be significantly better than the cheap ground control crap.

[steve shadows]

Originally Posted by racepar1

DO NOT get ground control coil over sleeves! The 240s don't have enough suspension travel to stick a threaded sleeve in there, you WILL bottom out. Invest in a set of coilovers, even megan's will be significantly better than the cheap ground control crap.

you mean they have too much suspension travel?

bottom out? as in? what compress the shock?

meagans ride like total shit compared to my 600 dollar suspension

KYB AGX + GC Eibach.

sorry man I dont know what your talking about. GC also sells bumb stops.

Im sure with Konis my car would ride night and day. But I cant afford the fuckers right now.

[racepar1]

Originally Posted by steve shadows

you mean they have too much suspension travel?

bottom out? as in? what compress the shock?

meagans ride like total shit compared to my 600 dollar suspension

KYB AGX + GC Eibach.

sorry man I dont know what your talking about. GC also sells bumb stops.

Im sure with Konis my car would ride night and day. But I cant afford the fuckers right now.

The front suspension has less than 2 inches of compression travel before you hit the bump stops in stock form. Lets say you drop the car 2 inches, now you have no travel at all. So then you cut the bump stops in half, now you have about 1.5 inches of travel. Not to mention that the sleeves themselves will likely interfere with compression travel. With that little compression travel you are almost sure to bottom out your suspension. Any full length adjustable coilovers will leave you with at least 2.5 to 3 inches of travel (if they are set-up right), which will be plenty of travel to avoid bottoming out. Also, how the car rides is a non-issue to me I ONLY care about how it handles!

[steve shadows]

Originally Posted by racepar1

The front suspension has less than 2 inches of compression travel before you hit the bump stops in stock form. Lets say you drop the car 2 inches, now you have no travel at all. So then you cut the bump stops in half, now you have about 1.5 inches of travel. Not to mention that the sleeves themselves will likely interfere with compression travel. With that little compression travel you are almost sure to bottom out your suspension. Any full length adjustable coilovers will leave you with at least 2.5 to 3 inches of travel (if they are set-up right), which will be plenty of travel to avoid bottoming out. Also, how the car rides is a non-issue to me I ONLY care about how it handles!

thats funny because my car handles better than most of the cars with one piece.

your argumnet confusing.

The problem with GC cars that ride improperly is the SHOCKS the Valving!

not the length.

some one else back me up on this here

[burnsauto]

Originally Posted by racepar1

The front suspension has less than 2 inches of compression travel before you hit the bump stops in stock form. Lets say you drop the car 2 inches, now you have no travel at all. So then you cut the bump stops in half, now you have about 1.5 inches of travel. Not to mention that the sleeves themselves will likely interfere with compression travel. With that little compression travel you are almost sure to bottom out your suspension. Any full length adjustable coilovers will leave you with at least 2.5 to 3 inches of travel (if they are set-up right), which will be plenty of travel to avoid bottoming out. Also, how the car rides is a non-issue to me I ONLY care about how it handles!

..you cut off part of the bumpstop so its shorter....giving the shock more room to travel. (and thats only if its needed...)

[Tearlessj]

Originally Posted by racepar1

The front suspension has less than 2 inches of compression travel before you hit the bump stops in stock form. Lets say you drop the car 2 inches, now you have no travel at all. So then you cut the bump stops in half, now you have about 1.5 inches of travel. Not to mention that the sleeves themselves will likely interfere with compression travel. With that little compression travel you are almost sure to bottom out your suspension. Any full length adjustable coilovers will leave you with at least 2.5 to 3 inches of travel (if they are set-up right), which will be plenty of travel to avoid bottoming out. Also, how the car rides is a non-issue to me I ONLY care about how it handles!

Wow your so wrong.

[driftfreek]

Originally Posted by steve shadows

you mean they have too much suspension travel?

bottom out? as in? what compress the shock?

meagans ride like total shit compared to my 600 dollar suspension

KYB AGX + GC Eibach.

sorry man I dont know what your talking about. GC also sells bumb stops.

Im sure with Konis my car would ride night and day. But I cant afford the fuckers right now.

hey steve, how much did u pay for that setup, kyb agx +GC? how stiff are you running? any problems yet? for how long have you had them?

[steve shadows]

Originally Posted by driftfreek

hey steve, how much did u pay for that setup, kyb agx +GC? how stiff are you running? any problems yet? for how long have you had them?

really cheap but Im not going to say because I might sell it soon and go with Konis and a diff spring rate so I might start over

You can find KYB AGX for about 300-400 bucks brand new
Tien Camber Plates 120-175 depending on new or used
GC Sleeves and coil kit + 1 hour of fabrication 400 + tears of joy

If your going to use the AGX shocks use a lower spring rate than I did for street. 375 Front and 300 Rear should be perfect.

[tougemII]

Originally Posted by racepar1

DO NOT get ground control coil over sleeves! The 240s don't have enough suspension travel to stick a threaded sleeve in there, you WILL bottom out. Invest in a set of coilovers, even megan's will be significantly better than the cheap ground control crap.

wow gtfo. you obviously dont know gc. gc/koni > lots of preset c/o. dampening on the koni shocks are really good. they are dyno dampened to perfection compaired to the tawian crap like d2,f2,ksports. i think if u really wanted to do some damage on the track, get gc/koni. all those preset c/o are for the average driver. if u want good suspension, ud have to pay the price. for the susp itself and the tuning itself. i think the tuning for gc koni is a lot greater then ur average preset c/o.
for me im gonna be riding on motons and gc for my s2k. when i get it.

[bigOdom1]

Originally Posted by tougemII

wow gtfo. you obviously dont know gc. gc/koni > lots of preset c/o. dampening on the koni shocks are really good. they are dyno dampened to perfection compaired to the tawian crap like d2,f2,ksports. i think if u really wanted to do some damage on the track, get gc/koni. all those preset c/o are for the average driver. if u want good suspension, ud have to pay the price. for the susp itself and the tuning itself. i think the tuning for gc koni is a lot greater then ur average preset c/o.
for me im gonna be riding on motons and gc for my s2k. when i get it.

Back off dude he already admitted he was not in the know concerning GC

[tschad]

Originally Posted by racepar1

DO NOT get ground control coil over sleeves! The 240s don't have enough suspension travel to stick a threaded sleeve in there, you WILL bottom out. Invest in a set of coilovers, even megan's will be significantly better than the cheap ground control crap.

read up on GC+koni. everyone says how great of a set up it is. and well megan....megan just sucks. megan is made in china with means cheap.

GC+koni is best setup for the price and im yet to hear of a better set up.

[bigOdom1]

what experience do you have with this setup? as stated i have had it since 2003/early 2004. never have I blown anything. then again im not wreckless by any means in my car and only sprited weekend cruises with different groups sometimes alone. bottoming out has never been an issue and suspension has plenty of travel. now i dont know if i would suggest going for the ground with this setup. because that is not what it is intended for but it only allows so much any way with the length of the sleeve. if your trying to drag a bumper the no GC is not for you. if you want to put your car on rails then give it a shot.

im not sure what kind of pictures you want


here are two that i have handy

[racepar1]

That pic is totally at the wrong angle to see what I wanted to see, but the set-up looks a little different than I was picturing. I was thinking like the honda fags where they just set a sleeve in there. My bad guys, I guess its not so bad.

[Wiisass]

All you're proving is that a double height adjustable coilover will let you go lower than a ground control setup with an OE replacement shock. Good for you, you're right. Unless you do something to the shock, you won't be able to lower the car as much without losing a lot of suspension travel.

As for the ride versus handling relationship, they're a lot more connected than everyone seems to realize. All those bumps and the harshness you feel at the driver's seat has to come from somewhere. So if it is getting transmitted through the tire into the suspension and into the chassis, then what kind of fluxuations in vibrations do you think the tire is seeing. That's bad for grip. The shock is meant to control the accelerations that the tire and the chassis experience. So a good ride will allow the car to handle better than a harsh ride. Of course, it won't ride like a caddy, because things will be happening a lot faster due to stiffer components, but it can still ride nicely. I've built dampers that ride nice and perform better. On the street, they were perfectly fine, not much harsher than a stock Accord, and on the road course the benefit of this ride quality was seen in several sections of the course where there were some larger bumps or rougher sections. These sections were unsettling a lot of the car, but our car could go right over them with no problems.

So a spring sleeve setup is not something for people who want to slam their cars or don't really know what they're doing. There are a million different ways to do the suspension and they all have their pros and cons. It depends on what you want and what you care about.

Tim

[bigOdom1]

thats the reason you have those little red things in your info. because you post like you have unlimited experience when in actuality you have very little or none.

please note this was not a bash or petty jab it was just a suggestion on how to improve your rep since you seem to struggle

[240sx_LE]

sleeve and swift coilover springs ftw!

i was wondering if anyone has done that.. anyone?

[SochBAT]

You can find AGXs for like, 600ish.

I was planning on running GC sleeves with Koni springs, and Swift dampening springs.

One of my buddies had the Koni Special, and swears by it to the death.

Too much damn hearsay nowadays. It is GAY.

[fromxtor]

^^ That plus some GC coils, those are my S13 ones before I have the strut towers powder coated.

[WilloW]

Nice! ^^ Are those just off the shelf Konis, or did you have anything done to them?

[Tearlessj]

Pics of that set-up on car?

[fromxtor]

Originally Posted by WilloW

Nice! ^^ Are those just off the shelf Konis, or did you have anything done to them?

Off the shelf S13 drop ins

Originally Posted by tearlessj

Pics of that set-up on car?

They are not on the car yet, thus the "off the car" pictures.

I still need to get around to ordering the GC coils and rear koni shocks. I will be ordering 400/350 springs w/ the GCs.

[Wiisass]

Originally Posted by fromxtor

8611 Double Adjustable

They are not on the car yet, thus the "off the car" pictures.

I still need to get around to ordering the GC coils and rear koni shocks. I will be ordering 400/350 springs w/ the GCs.

So how are you holding the shocks in the housing? I thought the 8611 was meant to work with a gland nut on the top.

What rear shocks are you using? Yellows, like AceinHole? Or something else?

And to the other guy that posted, why would you need ground controls with Motons, that makes no sense at all.

[McCoy]

Originally Posted by Wiisass

So how are you holding the shocks in the housing? I thought the 8611 was meant to work with a gland nut on the top.

agreed, I also spy a large bolt on the bottom of his housing holding the strut in from the bottom, this tells me it's an off the shelf koni yellow.

I have a setup almost identical to PJ (aceinhole) with the exception of the 8610 RACE insert, these do require custom housings, especially if you want to gain back some inner tire clearance on the S13 chassis.

For the rear, I'll be reusing the koni yellow with GC hardware for the time being, but will switch over to an 8610 in a custom housing to work with a Z32 rear upright.

Here is what mine looks like currently... still waiting on the rest of my GC order to show up. I'll be running some 550lb springs up front and 400lb springs in the rear.


Where the glan nut is threaded into the top to secure the insert into the housings.

[onabulletride]

Wow I'm glad i saw this thread, I've been obsessing over what to do with my suspension since I will finally have some money. Sounds like ground control is where its at in terms of performance. +rep is on its way.

[fromxtor]

Correct, they are held in by a round head hex bit bolt/lock washer. I'll probably be using off the shelf Koni rears also. Cool thing is w/ this setup once you have it finished you can just swap out shocks and springs. S chassis stock struts are dime a dozen. If you eff it up, get another one.

[Yoshi]

This is friggin great.

Evolution.

Added to the logs of "common 240 lore".

Life is Good.

A year or 2 ago, this thread would've been 3+ pages of me, Drift Freaq, and a few other vets trying to bat down the overwhelming hordes of ignorants who swore GC's were just the same as DropZone or APC or any other eBay-ish manufacturerer.
Arriving late to the thread, and seeing it already pages long, I expected the worst. Overjoyed am I to see so many Zilvians with CORRECT and ACCURATE knowledge on this subject Finally!

I luv u guys
I guess I'm just all sunshine and buttercups today
Must be cuz this is my Three Thousandth Post

[Wiisass]

Fromxtor, so wait, are you saying there's something at the bottom to hold yours in? Or have you not welded on a threaded section for the gland nut on the top yet?

But anyway, I like the 8611, the 8610 is also good, but the compression curve didn't match the numbers I was looking for the last time I ran the numbers. But I think it was for an 600/500 setup. As for the rear, I'm not sure if the off the shelf yellow is the best option. I mean it will work, don't get me wrong there. But I just wish there was something a little more comparable in price and quality to the 8611 for the rear. But Koni doesn't offer any twin tube, double adjustable shock that would work for the rear for approximately the same price. You could always use a strut insert in the back and it should work fine.

Or I guess there is always the option of having Koni convert a yellow to double adjustable and well they're in there, they could also revalve it. I can't remember what it costs for them to do that, but it wasn't cheap, $400-500 per shock, I think. But in the end, you would still have a pretty nice setup.

As for ground control, just look at what I posted before. If you guys are that into this and want to save some money, you can find sleeves, collars and hats other places and then get Hypercoils springs from a lot of places and it will probably come in a good bit less than ground control. I'm not saying buy the ebay crap, but there are a lot of good quality pieces out there that will work for this.

And whoever said swift springs, why would you waste money on them, when there are better options easily available in the states. Hypercoils is my obvious choice, but even Eibach (who makes ground contols springs) would be better and cheaper than swift.

Tim

[McCoy]

Originally Posted by Wiisass

But anyway, I like the 8611, the 8610 is also good, but the compression curve didn't match the numbers I was looking for the last time I ran the numbers. But I think it was for an 600/500 setup.

The 8610's cost me $330 shipped where as the 8611's were around $650 IIRC. Also, Koni just recently revalved the 8610's to closer match the 8611 valving, that was the deciding factor for me to go this route.

As for the rear, I'm not sure if the off the shelf yellow is the best option. I mean it will work, don't get me wrong there. But I just wish there was something a little more comparable in price and quality to the 8611 for the rear. But Koni doesn't offer any twin tube, double adjustable shock that would work for the rear for approximately the same price. You could always use a strut insert in the back and it should work fine.

Agreed, but it's what I currently have laying around and will use it until I can afford another set of 8610's for the rear.

As for ground control, just look at what I posted before. If you guys are that into this and want to save some money, you can find sleeves, collars and hats other places and then get Hypercoils springs from a lot of places and it will probably come in a good bit less than ground control. I'm not saying buy the ebay crap, but there are a lot of good quality pieces out there that will work for this.

My GC kit, I've had since 2001... it was originally purchased for a B13 sentra I had, but never used. Used GC kits can be had for as little as $150 and springs $50 a set if you shop around. I have 8 sets of springs ranging from 300# springs to 550# springs to play with on my S13.

[fromxtor]

^^ Yes the Koni shocks have a threaded area at the base, So the bolt goes right through the strut to the shock. I cant take better pics later.