South Ossetia War

[cuddlesthesheep]

Stuff is just getting bad

Georgia offers ceasefire as fighting continues - Yahoo! News
U.S.: Russia trying to topple Georgian government - CNN.com
2008 South Ossetia war - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Fallbrook240]

Just read that we will be sending planes back from Iraq with roughly 2000 Georgian soldiers to help aid against Russia..
Which means the United State is now openly engaged in military operations against Russia, making those transport planes legitimate targets of war.
All anyone who wants to really turn this into a Russo-American war needs to do is shoot one of those down.
South Ossetian War or World War 3?

[D1champ]

We all know that the USA will be the cause the 3rd world war. I'm not even surprised, you guys keep sticking your nose where it doesn't belong with bogus reason like "defending freedom"....freedom my ass.

[beeracing s14]

"defending freedom"....freedom my ass.

i will exponentially go second the motion on that...

[articdragon192]

I'm not much to get into political stuff, but history has taught us that sticking our noses in other people's business has gotten us into trouble. We need to take care of ourselves here before we go around policing the world and helping fix other people's problems.

[98s14inaz]

"And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the plank in your own eye? "Or how can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me remove the speck that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the plank that is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck that is in your brother's eye."
Luke 6:41-42 NKJV

Jesus was a smart guy. If only humanity used the good parts of religion instead of using it to manipulate people into killing each other. In case it isn't perfectly clear I am saying we need to mind our own business and fix our own country before we start trying to fix everyone eles'.

[Firestorm]

i hope this is not going to turn into a second cold war...

[Jordn]

Heard on the radio this morning that Mr Bush and the US have pretty much stated they will get involved if it continues. The phrase - MIND YOUR OWN FUCKING BUSINESS comes to mind.

[PhilthyS13]

Originally Posted by Jordn

Heard on the radio this morning that Mr Bush and the US have pretty much stated they will get involved if it continues. The phrase - MIND YOUR OWN FUCKING BUSINESS comes to mind.

Where the US goes, the UK will follow shortly. Especially when a former Soviet country like Georgia has made no secret of trying really, really hard to join NATO. After breaking from the USSR, Georgia has really tried to buddy up with the US - which pisses off Moscow. On the other hand, Moscow has issued passports to citizens in Georgia - which is kinda shady. That would be like the US issuing American passports to people in Nova Scotia, and then claiming that it is a US territory because citizens live there.

Don't forget that once upon a time "the sun never set" on the British Empire, meaning Great Britain didn't always mind their own business. In fact, until 1945 the UK seemed to mind everyone else's business. See: South Africa (apartheid), India (Gandhi), Africa in general (Cecil Rhodes) and most recently: The Falklands. There were British troops garrisoned on every continent. The US assumed the hegemony that the UK had to relinquish. Britain was hegemon for centuries, the US has only got it post-WWII, so let's not go call the kettle black.

Besides, what exactly does "involved" mean? That could mean acting as an arbitrator or mediator. It could also be simple saber rattling.


I also don't get why this had to get into how the US is the bad guy simply because we have wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, while Russia has wars in Chechnya and Ossetia (which just happen to be right next door to each other). It's not like the US is trying to annex Iraq or Afghanistan - Russia might be trying to do just that.

[NervGS]

Thought I'd never live to see a nuclear war.

Awesome.

-glenn

[Jordn]

Thats the unfortunate thing, Tony Blair set this country up to 'support' the US in its military actions, I know the UK will follow if the US go in.

Whats the chances of Bush going in as a 'mediator'? With Afganistan and Iraq invasions on his CV I think we all know how he will become 'involved'.

I'm not by any means US bashing but this strikes me as a chance for Bush to flex his military muscle even more, which is exactly what he appears to be doing thus far. The UK by no means has a perfect track record - what I'm basically trying to say is, both of our countries are run by clueless fuckwits.

[98s14inaz]

Originally Posted by PhilthyS13

Besides, what exactly does "involved" mean? That could mean acting as an arbitrator or mediator. It could also be simple saber rattling.

Saber rattling should be taken seriously because at the very least a cold war will result from it. The scary part that concerns me is that several scriptures in Christianity point to "the bear rising" in the end times. The Soviet Union was always associated with the bear. It wouldn't be a stretch for that region to reunite and go communist again. We really need to stay the fuck out of these places though. Let the almighty UN handle it with out us because it's in their yard.

[shade]

The United Nations is a joke. They can't enforce crap. Sure they bring nations together to talk but they usually can't really lay down the law. I give them props for their great humanitarian aid. And trade influences.

NATO on the other hand would have been different. Georgia should have waited until it finally became a member before getting into any conflict. You would think that the Russian invasion was planned to attack before the Georgians could even join, in my opinion, I believe it was. Russia didn't like hearing the talks of them joining because they wouldn't be able to touch them if they did become part of NATO. Too late now.

Originally Posted by 98s14inaz

Let the almighty UN handle it with out us because it's in their yard.

[highwaystar22]

Russia is bombing civilian targets well away from the conflict zone. They have opened this up and become the aggressor. If you are really just trying to protect your "citizens" in S.O. why would you bomb civlian targets miles and miles away, and bomb the port on the black sea?

Everyone seems to miss the big point here. Georgia controls the one marjor pipeline that Russia can't get to without annexing Georgia back into Russia. They are furious as hell that they have that pipeline and have used this conflict as an excuse to bomb it, although they have been unsuccessful in completely destroying it. Georgia used to be a part of the U.S.S.R. until they went pro-democracy. Russia is waging a war for oil and natural gas control so they can line their filthy pockets. Man where have I heard "war for oil" before.... oh yeah, when people accuse us of doing things in Iraq of Afgan for oil yet when the Russian's do it we are sticking our nose in their business and we're the bad guy. (btw Iraq had a 72bil surplus and we haven't requested any payment for our "services" to liberate them from a despot.)

If Georgia falls, then our street cred goes to shiz and any security agreement we sign with any friendly country can be called into question. It's like a bad dream.

[iHeartTheTouge]

Originally Posted by D1champ

We all know that the USA will be the cause the 3rd world war. I'm not even surprised, you guys keep sticking your nose where it doesn't belong with bogus reason like "defending freedom"....freedom my ass.

Time for World Police to take action. America! Fuck yeah!

seriously though, its gonna happen. the US needs to sit this one out, Georgia messed up their agreement with Russia and is paying the consequences.

[Mi Beardo es Loco]

The entire UN needs to step in and sanction Russia. No trading until the bombing stops. Place UN troops in Georgia until Russia is ready to back down. Remember, Russia is in eastern Europe and have to rely heavily on trading.

This has to be a UN mediation, not a US.

[shade]

I don't know how much the Russian depend on Western trade but they can always funnel things through China. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't they always backing each other up and both have strong relations?

Originally Posted by Mi Beardo es Loco

No trading until the bombing stops.

[Mi Beardo es Loco]

Originally Posted by shade

I don't know how much the Russian depend on Western trade but they can always funnel things through China. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't they always backing each other up and both have strong relations?

that's why we set shop in the trade routes.

[shade]

Both sides can just cross the border. And there's a long major route (without going through another country) coming from NE China going through S Russia to Moscow.


Don't forget CSTO, Russian version of NATO. Meaning that they might also trade through the former Soviet satellite nations. They include Russia, Armenia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, and Uzbekistan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collect...y_Organization
http://www.dkb.gov.ru/

[Jordn]

Remember how every argumet has two sides? Copy N Paste below.

The truth behind who is primarily responsible for the bloodshed unfolding in South Ossetia and surrounding areas has been buried by the western corporate media. Georgian forces, with a green light from NATO and the support of American and Ukrainian mercenaries, launched a brutal attack targeting civilians and Russian peacekeepers timed to coincide with the opening of the Beijing Olympics so as to temporarily deflect attention before the inevitable Russian response, by which time the global media machine kicked into high gear to smear Russia as the villains of the entire piece.

To accept such a characterization is not parroting Russian military propaganda, it is a reflection of the stone cold fact that Georgia was responsible for the first provocation - which itself amounted to a war crime - that launched the conflict.

That is not to hide from the fact that Russia’s unrelenting response continues to slaughter untold numbers of innocent people.

The initial Georgian bombardment of the provincial capital Tskhinvali was primarily directed to achieve maximum civilian casualties, with residential areas, hospitals and the university being targeted, leading to at least 1500 civilian deaths according to both western and Russian sources.

[S13_Nightkid]

hmmm so there you go. And the UN? not so much They're peacekeepers..not peacemakers.

[ronmcdon]

Originally Posted by highwaystar22

Russia is bombing civilian targets well away from the conflict zone. They have opened this up and become the aggressor. If you are really just trying to protect your "citizens" in S.O. why would you bomb civlian targets miles and miles away, and bomb the port on the black sea?

Everyone seems to miss the big point here. Georgia controls the one marjor pipeline that Russia can't get to without annexing Georgia back into Russia. They are furious as hell that they have that pipeline and have used this conflict as an excuse to bomb it, although they have been unsuccessful in completely destroying it. Georgia used to be a part of the U.S.S.R. until they went pro-democracy. Russia is waging a war for oil and natural gas control so they can line their filthy pockets. Man where have I heard "war for oil" before.... oh yeah, when people accuse us of doing things in Iraq of Afgan for oil yet when the Russian's do it we are sticking our nose in their business and we're the bad guy. (btw Iraq had a 72bil surplus and we haven't requested any payment for our "services" to liberate them from a despot.)

If Georgia falls, then our street cred goes to shiz and any security agreement we sign with any friendly country can be called into question. It's like a bad dream.

Great point about the pipeline. For that reason alone, I think europe and the US have too much interest at stake to allow the russians to fully invade georgia.

Georgia was in the wrong to invade, but my guess is that they were playing a bluffing game in the first place that a) the russian would advance futher than ossetia (true), and b) they would be backed by the UN and the US (yet to be proven, but seems also likely). I will say that US demands are very reasonable if they ask that things return to the way they were before the Georgian invasion. If Russia fully invades Georgia, then that is also going a bit too far, and will almost certainly trigger another Cold War.

Saving face, or street cred as you say also goes both ways. I'm just not so sure the US can afford another conflict, given our current dismal situation. Of course, right or wrong, I fully support the US. Better we have access to oil pipelines than the Russians. Oil prices here might very well take a huge hit if that occurs. We don't need that, esp not right now. Otherwise, its politics as usual. Both sides have economic interests at stake. nothing new here.

Apparently, now it is a Russian invasion. The Russian 'peacekeepers' have pushed well beyond Ossetia; UN intervention (if not confrontation) seems very probable at this point.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080811/..._xKb0Nhstg.3QA

Couldn't be any worse timing for crap like this

[BOROSUN]

forget the bs/btc pipeline... they would love to open a armenia-russia pipeline.

[spoolandslide]

hmmmm...... *snif* *snif*

I smell war a world war.

Especially if Bush decides to get involved and the American Voters decide to elect McCain over Obama because he would make for a better war time president.

so...

IF YOU WANT TO BE INVOLVED IN A WORLD WAR THEN VOTE FOR JOHN McCAIN

[ronmcdon]

cold war and worsening relations maybe, but I highly doubt any costly conflict is going to come out of this. then again, the arrogance of putin knows no bounds. if anyone is going to do anything stupid from here onwards, i don't think its the US. Now the Russians are apparently threatening Poland

[spoolandslide]

Originally Posted by ronmcdon

cold war and worsening relations maybe, but I highly doubt any costly conflict is going to come out of this. then again, the arrogance of putin knows no bounds. if anyone is going to do anything stupid from here onwards, i don't think its the US. Now the Russians are apparently threatening Poland

YouTube - Republican War Machine


you never know whats gonna happen ^watch^

[Brian]

wonderful.

I better hurry and build my new car while I still can.

[ronmcdon]

Originally Posted by spoolandslide

YouTube - Republican War Machine


you never know whats gonna happen ^watch^

Lol, I think it's only fair that we take this incident at face value. Even Haliburton wouldn't have too much to gain at such a late stage of Bush's office.

Besides, Bush hasn't been too hawkish about the the whole Georgian affair. He seems reasonable here. His terms were merely that Russia withdraw their invasion of Georgia, and have things go back to the way it was. He also wants to have the present ceasefire agreement terms to be more well defined. He is sending humanitarian aid, but no mention of military support.

The US might be aggressors in the past, but I firmly think they wouldn't want a fight with Russia at this time. as others have mentioned, the US is spread too thin in Iraq, Afghan, and with a possibility of something in Iran. It's not something our economy would cope well with at a time like this, and I think Russia is well aware of it.

As for whether McCain or Obama gets elected, I don't think either candidate would stand for letting Russia invade their neighbors. It's a delicate situation, but I firmly believe it's what cards the Russains play that will determine how things go from here.

The US might have it's faults, no question, but you also have to consider that Czar Putin and the Russians are no saints either. I just hope history doesn't repeat itself. Worst case scenario (hope it doesn't come to that), better we prevail than them.

[flip3d]

We really shouldnt be doing anything in the first place. Georgia isnt a full member of NATO.

[shade]

Originally Posted by spoolandslide

IF YOU WANT TO BE INVOLVED IN A WORLD WAR THEN VOTE FOR JOHN McCAIN

Obama was anti-war in the beginning, he changed his stance on that.

Obama wants more members in the military. 65,000 in the Army and 25,000 in the Marine Corps to be exact.
Barack Obama | Change We Can Believe In | Defense

He also talked of focusing on Afghanistan and invade Pakistan with or without permission as well. Pakistan is a nuclear power.
YouTube - Obama saying he would attack terrorists in Pakistan

Piece that together.

Either or, both candidates will lead us through conflict. Both suck ass. I will still vote though, it'll just take until November for me to decide. A lot of changes can happen until then.