Triangulated front STB - Worth it? - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

sidewayz240 · 12-04-2008, 03:18 PM

I'm making a front STB at the moment and am torn on whether or not a triangulated bar will prove any real added rigidity over just a straight bar. The firewall isnt made of the thickest metal by any means.
Is the firewall even a stuctural point on an S chassis? anyone here have expeience with triangulated bars, or well backed opinon on the topic?

racepar1 · 12-04-2008, 03:26 PM

A triangulated bar is better then a straight bar and the firewall is always one of the strongest points in the car. I think cusco used to make one for the s-13? Some JDM company did, but it was dis-continued long ago.

sidewayz240 · 12-04-2008, 03:47 PM

Really.. hmm. From the looks of the firewall the metal dosnt seem thick enough to add much structure if something were to be tied in. Maybe if the metal was re-enforced where the bar would bolt in might help.

Yea, I think cusco made one for a while, as did CP racing. And a guy on Nico or F/A manufactured some for a limited time a while ago.

Def · 12-04-2008, 03:52 PM

The welded lip on the firewall a few inches down makes it very stiff in bending up top. The curved shape and how it's welded to the trans tunnel, fenderwells, and framerails all combine to make it very strong/stiff in how its mounted to the rest of the structure.

It's not always the thickness of the metal that determines the strength/stiffness, because a decent design will go a long way towards making efficient use of thinner metals to give the strength of a much thicker but flat panel.

Om1kron · 12-04-2008, 03:56 PM

dousan says :
"spot weld engine bay
throw away junk jdm bar
done, now drift"

lol

sidewayz240 · 12-04-2008, 05:19 PM

Well said Def, looks like I'll triangulate it then. I'll see how close to that ledge/seam I can tie the bars into. Now i have to find a way to manouver around that damn giant ABS unit.

This chassis wont last long, no point in spot welding it, plus this ain't no ebay strut bar.

articdragon192 · 12-04-2008, 05:47 PM

I believe Tomei made one.

JeremyR · 12-04-2008, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by articdragon192

I believe Tomei made one.

+1 on that. i'm 80% sure.

articdragon192 · 12-04-2008, 05:51 PM

Im right.

az_240 · 12-04-2008, 06:05 PM

Shakitto plates are an option if you can find them. They brace the strut tower to the firewall.

I have some and love them

MadScientist · 12-04-2008, 06:24 PM

If your making one yourself I agree that taking note of past designs will significantly increase your odds of making something worth as shit and hopefully it wont look like most DIY projects.

The old Tomei design was originally made by Cusco but Cusco never offered it for sale... only Tomei. If your really crazy about design, i would suggest looking up the HKS JZA80 Limited Edition... they only made about 100 of them and the were JDM only... only a few in the US and people pay insain amounts for them.

Tomei- Triangle Bar
Carbing - Rigid mount
Cusco - 40mm and bent over the exhaust mani for top mount clearence.

anyway its all your idea so just have fun and make it work.

-Drew

slider2828 · 12-04-2008, 06:34 PM

Shakitto is junk.... seam weld or spot weld.... Easy as pie....

sidewayz240 · 12-04-2008, 06:47 PM

Those Shakitto plates are interesting, looks like where they mount is very solid... hmm.

Madscientist, the pic you posted didnt work, you think you can rehost it for me?

I have another option now. Should I make it an actual triangle like the tomie model and tie it to the center, OR bolt it in two places like the CP racing one and the one sold on Nico here S13 Front Strut / Firewall Brace: Fabricators' Market: Nissan Forums / Infiniti Forums - NICOclub

It would be easier to have two mounting points to avoid all the brake lines in the center of the firewall, and I'd assume more rigid towards the outside of the car as thats where the door pillar and A-pillar meet up.

Def · 12-04-2008, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slider2828

Shakitto is junk.... seam weld or spot weld.... Easy as pie....

Little weld beads actually won't get much more metal involved in resisting the movement of the front strut towers.

The Shakitto plates are pretty similar to what a lot of newer performance cars are doing with triangulating the strut towers to the firewall with sheet metal.

racepar1 · 12-04-2008, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Def

Little weld beads actually won't get much more metal involved in resisting the movement of the front strut towers.

The Shakitto plates are pretty similar to what a lot of newer performance cars are doing with triangulating the strut towers to the firewall with sheet metal.

Agreed, shakitto plates are worth it. The biggest thing you can weld to help the rigidity os the strut towers is to solid weld the joints around where the aprons attatch to the firewall. There are a lot of pretty big gaps in that area and filling those gaps in helps.

McRussellPants · 12-04-2008, 08:10 PM

I've got strut tower plates and stitchwelding on my car.

i didn't notice either.

but it was like 40$ so whatever.

slider2828 · 12-04-2008, 08:58 PM

Shakitto ... I dunno about other cars... but pretty worthless on our cars... Maybe difference in design, but even sources in Japan says not a big deal... at least on 240s... Doesn't mean anything for other cars.... Get fender braces... Biggest change...

!Zar! · 12-04-2008, 09:05 PM

STB's are pointless unless the car is stiff.

I hope the op has some sort of suspension to be causing flex in the chassis and not just buying stb's for the sake of cheap bling.

*Jonnie Fraz* · 12-04-2008, 09:18 PM

+1 on the fender braces. You will feel the difference. Carbing also did a tri brace with a nice design.
Now on your STB...my opinion is no bolts, or joints. Just weld it solid. I like the design that the guy on Nico did. It keeps it out of the way if you want to go top mount, yet it is a very sturdy design. He stopped building them...it was not his passion, just filling a need.
Keep us updated..I would love to see the finished product.

sidewayz240 · 12-04-2008, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by !Zar!

STB's are pointless unless the car is stiff.

I hope the op has some sort of suspension to be causing flex in the chassis and not just buying stb's for the sake of cheap bling.

I dont agree with that, but my cars stiff enough/will be "stiffer" next season. It is cheap bling, <$20 for metal, some fab work and I get a mark on it for one of my classes. Bonus.

sidewayz240 · 12-04-2008, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonnie Fraz

+1 on the fender braces. You will feel the difference. Carbing also did a tri brace with a nice design.
Now on your STB...my opinion is no bolts, or joints. Just weld it solid. I like the design that the guy on Nico did. It keeps it out of the way if you want to go top mount, yet it is a very sturdy design. He stopped building them...it was not his passion, just filling a need.
Keep us updated..I would love to see the finished product.

Yea, everyone hypes up the fender braces, must be good shit. Maybe that'll be my next project.... Dont want to mess with my cumple zones too much though, thats my only worry.

The only bolts will be where it bolts to the firewall. The one on nico is very nice, but I dont really want to snatch his design and using what I have available to me, bends like that wouldnt be easy. I'll post it up in here or the Fab thread when it's done.

az_240 · 12-05-2008, 07:14 PM

I have both fender braces and shakitto plates... those who are talking shit about the plates have obviously never used them. They are amazing for our cars. I felt them more than the fender braces.

slider2828 · 12-06-2008, 01:25 AM

Did you put them on after the fender braces...? Or one or the other? That would only tell you the difference....

The braces if designed correctly don't mess with your crumple zone...

usdm180sx · 12-06-2008, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by articdragon192

I believe Tomei made one.

Yes. EdaciousX has one on his s14

*Jonnie Fraz* · 12-06-2008, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewayz240

Yea, everyone hypes up the fender braces, must be good shit. Maybe that'll be my next project.... Dont want to mess with my cumple zones too much though, thats my only worry.

The only bolts will be where it bolts to the firewall. The one on nico is very nice, but I dont really want to snatch his design and using what I have available to me, bends like that wouldnt be easy. I'll post it up in here or the Fab thread when it's done.

On the crumple zones...easy don't hit anything....lol.

As far as his design...unless you are trying to sell it I don't think it is a worry. Also I think he stopped building them. You can contact him and ask if he minds. He is a realy cool guy, but if you are planning on selling them you might wann check first.

Good luck

JohnnyDrfiter22 · 12-06-2008, 10:20 AM

check out passwordjdm for design ideas, and if the honda guys do it on their thin firewalls we can do it too...

Bigsyke · 12-06-2008, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyDrfiter22

check out passwordjdm for design ideas, and if the honda guys do it on their thin firewalls we can do it too...

Their chassis also dont flex as much

racepar1 · 12-06-2008, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewayz240

Dont want to mess with my cumple zones too much though, thats my only worry.

God dammit!!! How many times must this be repeated? The "crumple zone" is in FRONT of the goddamn strut tower, NOT between the tower and the firewall!!!!!!!!!! The metal in that area of the chasis is thick as fuck! It is not a god damn crumple zone!

Bigsyke · 12-06-2008, 04:31 PM

My question is, why arent I seeing these 2" galvanized pipes at home depot being used for a STB?

Is an extra 3lbs that big of a deal?

Im more concerned about the strut towers moving up and down (indepenant Y movements) versus seperating slightly. You think an aluminum STB is going to not bend when the chassis flexes on the Y axis?

2" galvanized pipe = problem solved

sidewayz240 · 12-06-2008, 08:57 PM

Dunno if the aluminum bar comment was directed at me or was just a general statment but I'll be using cold rolled rounded rectangular steel bar, cant remember the wall thickness, but its pretty solid stuff. And wont use any joints or bs to allow verticle flex.

Racepar, makes sence that that area wouldnt be a crumple zone.. it was just so widely rumoured that I guess convinced me.

Damn the cold weather, cant get anything done.

12-04-2008, 03:18 PM	#1
sidewayz240 Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Toronto Age: 34 Posts: 327 Trader Rating: (6) Feedback Score: 6 reviews	Triangulated front STB - Worth it? I'm making a front STB at the moment and am torn on whether or not a triangulated bar will prove any real added rigidity over just a straight bar. The firewall isnt made of the thickest metal by any means. Is the firewall even a stuctural point on an S chassis? anyone here have expeience with triangulated bars, or well backed opinon on the topic? __________________ -Trevor

12-04-2008, 03:47 PM	#3
sidewayz240 Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Toronto Age: 34 Posts: 327 Trader Rating: (6) Feedback Score: 6 reviews	Really.. hmm. From the looks of the firewall the metal dosnt seem thick enough to add much structure if something were to be tied in. Maybe if the metal was re-enforced where the bar would bolt in might help. Yea, I think cusco made one for a while, as did CP racing. And a guy on Nico or F/A manufactured some for a limited time a while ago. __________________ -Trevor

12-04-2008, 03:56 PM	#5
Om1kron Post Whore! Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Granada Hills, CA Age: 44 Posts: 6,992 Trader Rating: (15) Feedback Score: 15 reviews	dousan says : "spot weld engine bay throw away junk jdm bar done, now drift" lol __________________ Wayne Edwards https://om1kron.blogspot.com

12-04-2008, 05:19 PM	#6
sidewayz240 Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Toronto Age: 34 Posts: 327 Trader Rating: (6) Feedback Score: 6 reviews	Well said Def, looks like I'll triangulate it then. I'll see how close to that ledge/seam I can tie the bars into. Now i have to find a way to manouver around that damn giant ABS unit. This chassis wont last long, no point in spot welding it, plus this ain't no ebay strut bar. __________________ -Trevor

12-04-2008, 05:47 PM	#7
articdragon192 Post Whore! Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: West covina Age: 39 Posts: 6,792 Trader Rating: (9) Feedback Score: 9 reviews	I believe Tomei made one. __________________ Need help? Click here Still stumped? Try this Can't find what you're looking for? Here you go.

12-04-2008, 03:26 PM	#2
racepar1 Post Whore! Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Simi Valley, CA Age: 42 Posts: 9,006 Trader Rating: (106) Rides Gallery: racepar1 Feedback Score: 106 reviews	A triangulated bar is better then a straight bar and the firewall is always one of the strongest points in the car. I think cusco used to make one for the s-13? Some JDM company did, but it was dis-continued long ago.

12-04-2008, 03:52 PM	#4
Def Post Whore! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 2,701 Trader Rating: (16) Feedback Score: 16 reviews	The welded lip on the firewall a few inches down makes it very stiff in bending up top. The curved shape and how it's welded to the trans tunnel, fenderwells, and framerails all combine to make it very strong/stiff in how its mounted to the rest of the structure. It's not always the thickness of the metal that determines the strength/stiffness, because a decent design will go a long way towards making efficient use of thinner metals to give the strength of a much thicker but flat panel.

12-04-2008, 05:51 PM	#9
articdragon192 Post Whore! Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: West covina Age: 39 Posts: 6,792 Trader Rating: (9) Feedback Score: 9 reviews	Im right. __________________ Need help? Click here Still stumped? Try this Can't find what you're looking for? Here you go.

12-04-2008, 06:05 PM	#10
az_240 Post Whore! Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Phx Posts: 3,097 Trader Rating: (41) Feedback Score: 41 reviews	Shakitto plates are an option if you can find them. They brace the strut tower to the firewall. I have some and love them

12-04-2008, 06:24 PM	#11
MadScientist Zilvia.net Advertiser Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: NOLA Age: 48 Posts: 1,972 Trader Rating: (3) Feedback Score: 3 reviews	If your making one yourself I agree that taking note of past designs will significantly increase your odds of making something worth as shit and hopefully it wont look like most DIY projects. The old Tomei design was originally made by Cusco but Cusco never offered it for sale... only Tomei. If your really crazy about design, i would suggest looking up the HKS JZA80 Limited Edition... they only made about 100 of them and the were JDM only... only a few in the US and people pay insain amounts for them. Tomei- Triangle Bar Carbing - Rigid mount Cusco - 40mm and bent over the exhaust mani for top mount clearence. anyway its all your idea so just have fun and make it work. -Drew

12-04-2008, 06:34 PM	#12
slider2828 Post Whore! Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 6,040 Trader Rating: (13) Feedback Score: 13 reviews	Shakitto is junk.... seam weld or spot weld.... Easy as pie.... __________________ Turn and Burn!

12-04-2008, 06:47 PM	#13
sidewayz240 Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Toronto Age: 34 Posts: 327 Trader Rating: (6) Feedback Score: 6 reviews	Those Shakitto plates are interesting, looks like where they mount is very solid... hmm. Madscientist, the pic you posted didnt work, you think you can rehost it for me? I have another option now. Should I make it an actual triangle like the tomie model and tie it to the center, OR bolt it in two places like the CP racing one and the one sold on Nico here S13 Front Strut / Firewall Brace: Fabricators' Market: Nissan Forums / Infiniti Forums - NICOclub It would be easier to have two mounting points to avoid all the brake lines in the center of the firewall, and I'd assume more rigid towards the outside of the car as thats where the door pillar and A-pillar meet up. __________________ -Trevor

12-04-2008, 08:10 PM	#16
McRussellPants Nissanaholic! Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Austin, Tx Posts: 2,168 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	I've got strut tower plates and stitchwelding on my car. i didn't notice either. but it was like 40$ so whatever.

12-04-2008, 08:58 PM	#17
slider2828 Post Whore! Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 6,040 Trader Rating: (13) Feedback Score: 13 reviews	Shakitto ... I dunno about other cars... but pretty worthless on our cars... Maybe difference in design, but even sources in Japan says not a big deal... at least on 240s... Doesn't mean anything for other cars.... Get fender braces... Biggest change... __________________ Turn and Burn!

12-04-2008, 09:05 PM	#18
!Zar! Post Whore! Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: North Korea Posts: 14,579 Trader Rating: (27) Feedback Score: 27 reviews	STB's are pointless unless the car is stiff. I hope the op has some sort of suspension to be causing flex in the chassis and not just buying stb's for the sake of cheap bling. __________________

12-04-2008, 09:18 PM	#19
Jonnie Fraz Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Cali Age: 56 Posts: 1,371 Trader Rating: (29) Rides Gallery: Jonnie Fraz Feedback Score: 29 reviews	+1 on the fender braces. You will feel the difference. Carbing also did a tri brace with a nice design. Now on your STB...my opinion is no bolts, or joints. Just weld it solid. I like the design that the guy on Nico did. It keeps it out of the way if you want to go top mount, yet it is a very sturdy design. He stopped building them...it was not his passion, just filling a need. Keep us updated..I would love to see the finished product. __________________ Stealth-Custom-Fab.com

12-05-2008, 07:14 PM	#22
az_240 Post Whore! Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Phx Posts: 3,097 Trader Rating: (41) Feedback Score: 41 reviews	I have both fender braces and shakitto plates... those who are talking shit about the plates have obviously never used them. They are amazing for our cars. I felt them more than the fender braces.

12-06-2008, 01:25 AM	#23
slider2828 Post Whore! Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 6,040 Trader Rating: (13) Feedback Score: 13 reviews	Did you put them on after the fender braces...? Or one or the other? That would only tell you the difference.... The braces if designed correctly don't mess with your crumple zone... __________________ Turn and Burn!

12-06-2008, 10:20 AM	#26
JohnnyDrfiter22 Zilvia Addict Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: New Jersey Age: 42 Posts: 670 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	check out passwordjdm for design ideas, and if the honda guys do it on their thin firewalls we can do it too...

12-06-2008, 04:31 PM	#29
Bigsyke Zilvia FREAK! Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: NA Age: 40 Posts: 1,342 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	My question is, why arent I seeing these 2" galvanized pipes at home depot being used for a STB? Is an extra 3lbs that big of a deal? Im more concerned about the strut towers moving up and down (indepenant Y movements) versus seperating slightly. You think an aluminum STB is going to not bend when the chassis flexes on the Y axis? 2" galvanized pipe = problem solved

12-06-2008, 08:57 PM	#30
sidewayz240 Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Toronto Age: 34 Posts: 327 Trader Rating: (6) Feedback Score: 6 reviews	Dunno if the aluminum bar comment was directed at me or was just a general statment but I'll be using cold rolled rounded rectangular steel bar, cant remember the wall thickness, but its pretty solid stuff. And wont use any joints or bs to allow verticle flex. Racepar, makes sence that that area wouldnt be a crumple zone.. it was just so widely rumoured that I guess convinced me. Damn the cold weather, cant get anything done. __________________ -Trevor