Custom Fab Titanium Exhaust

[ManoNegra]

Originally Posted by misfitsfreak81

wow!! Never thought i would have this much interest all ready. Zilvia.net Rocks! I will try to address all replies in order. here it goes.

interest, as you'll come to find out, is plenty abundant here
just wait till it's time to shell out the cash...

[misfitsfreak81]

Originally Posted by ManoNegra

same as Ti but better, ie strenght, light, great heat characteristics
what F1 uses nowadays
also $$$$$$
wasn't meant to be taken seriously btw...

well said. it is mad expensive and def overkill for this application. it would be cool though. Inconel exhaust valves!!! FTW

Mike

[jamg]

plz don't make this exhaust (if you do) super duper expensive.

[misfitsfreak81]

Originally Posted by jamg

plz don't make this exhaust (if you do) super duper expensive.

im gonna try to keep it as resonable as possible.

Mike

[Ofc. Dangle]

Sounds like an awesome idea. I would definetly be interested as I am getting an S14 to throw my SR into soon.

[jspecusa]

Originally Posted by ManoNegra

interest, as you'll come to find out, is plenty abundant here
just wait till it's time to shell out the cash...

If you are making this exhaust for fun then you'll get sick of it after a few sold.

If you are making this exhaust to make profit, I suggest you make it for cars that cost over $20,000 used still.

the cost to make a ti exhaust is $450 so to sell it for profit you'll have to mark up to $900 minimum.

there are people that are good at making things, there are people who are good at doing business, hope you can do both.
good luck,

sam

[huffandpuff00]

what about a simple downpipe(s13)? already have a trust Ti-R exhaust

[screaminfast]

Originally Posted by huffandpuff00

what about a simple downpipe(s13)? already have a trust Ti-R exhaust

Most people do not make downpipes in Titanium because of the amount of heat put into the dp.

[xs240]

^Off topic but your avatar seats are f'en sexy... i want. What are they

[misfitsfreak81]

Originally Posted by screaminfast

Most people do not make downpipes in Titanium because of the amount of heat put into the dp.

you can still reap benefits from a TI downpipe though.

Originally Posted by huffandpuff00

what about a simple downpipe(s13)? already have a trust Ti-R exhaust

I have certainly considered it. Im still waiting to hear from my metal supplier. keep your fingers crossed.

Originally Posted by jspecusa

If you are making this exhaust for fun then you'll get sick of it after a few sold.

If you are making this exhaust to make profit, I suggest you make it for cars that cost over $20,000 used still.

the cost to make a ti exhaust is $450 so to sell it for profit you'll have to mark up to $900 minimum.

there are people that are good at making things, there are people who are good at doing business, hope you can do both.
good luck,

making it for something to do and give people an chance to get a quality Ti exhaust with out having to sell an organ to pay for it. I would certainly be willing to do exhausts for whatever vehicle make/model that people have. Im starting here cause I have an S14 just chillin in my garage right now while I build the motor. so I figured why not make something cool. Im not trying to make a ton of money off of this, if I can make some to help finance other parts of my build cool, if not than I guess we all loose.

sam

Originally Posted by Ofc. Dangle

Sounds like an awesome idea. I would definetly be interested as I am getting an S14 to throw my SR into soon.

I will keep everyone up to date on this as much as I can.

Mike
North Shore Performance Auto

[Def]

Originally Posted by GSXRJJordan

I've never seen a titanium exhaust be bent - not in motorcycle racing, or ultra-high-dollar automobile racing. They're all pie cut.

The only titanium I've seen bent is like super small diameter tubing lol.

I've got a few shelves full of mandrel bent titanium tubes at work, so it's very possible. It wrinkles less than aluminum tubing of the same diameter and wall thickness.

McLaren F1's stock headers and exhaust system are titanium, and they're all mandrel bent. I think the Corvette ZR1's exhaust is titanium as well, and I can guarantee you they aren't pie cutting that thing.

[Def]

Originally Posted by ManoNegra

what price point are you shooting for?
from experience Ti is very expensive
and probably will fall off the reach of most 240 owners wallet

and while we're daydreaming, why not inconel?

Inconel would be good for a turbo manifold/headers, but not worth it for a cat back exhaust that could actually be made out of aluminum. The high temperature mechanical properties is what makes Inconel such a good material. It's actually heavier than stainless steel, or at least it feels that way to the hand.

[ManoNegra]

Originally Posted by Def

Inconel would be good for a turbo manifold/headers, but not worth it for a cat back exhaust that could actually be made out of aluminum. The high temperature mechanical properties is what makes Inconel such a good material. It's actually heavier than stainless steel, or at least it feels that way to the hand.

That's interesting, we have some at work
I'll try to remember to weigh it

[GSXRJJordan]

Originally Posted by Def

I've got a few shelves full of mandrel bent titanium tubes at work, so it's very possible. It wrinkles less than aluminum tubing of the same diameter and wall thickness.

McLaren F1's stock headers and exhaust system are titanium, and they're all mandrel bent. I think the Corvette ZR1's exhaust is titanium as well, and I can guarantee you they aren't pie cutting that thing.

Very cool info. Apparently I'm blind, or haven't been looking hard enough.

Aluminum, to me, is the easy choice here for cat-back stuff... doesn't corrode /rust (like mild steel) much, is reasonably cheap (about double the cost of mild steel, less than half the cost of Ti), and almost as light as Ti.

Oh, and the Z06 and ZR1 exhausts are Ti, but they're covered in heat shields. I'll have to get a peek at the bends the next time I'm under my dad's C5 Z06.

[misfitsfreak81]

Originally Posted by GSXRJJordan

Very cool info. Apparently I'm blind, or haven't been looking hard enough.

Aluminum, to me, is the easy choice here for cat-back stuff... doesn't corrode /rust (like mild steel) much, is reasonably cheap (about double the cost of mild steel, less than half the cost of Ti), and almost as light as Ti.

Oh, and the Z06 and ZR1 exhausts are Ti, but they're covered in heat shields. I'll have to get a peek at the bends the next time I'm under my dad's C5 Z06.

you would have to use pretty thick aluminum tube to keep it from melting. the heat transfer property of aluminum are way different than any form of steel. it also has a far lower melting point than steel. the heat from the cat alone would most likely destroy an aluminum exhaust, let alone the temp at the rear of the car in the bumper opening would be only a couple degrees different than right at the cat. just to clear things up, aluminum is not actually lighter than titanium. its just that ti is so much stronger it can be used in far thinner thicknesses with superior strength.

thanks

Mike
North Shore Performance Auto

[Def]

Originally Posted by misfitsfreak81

you would have to use pretty thick aluminum tube to keep it from melting. the heat transfer property of aluminum are way different than any form of steel. it also has a far lower melting point than steel. the heat from the cat alone would most likely destroy an aluminum exhaust, let alone the temp at the rear of the car in the bumper opening would be only a couple degrees different than right at the cat. just to clear things up, aluminum is not actually lighter than titanium. its just that ti is so much stronger it can be used in far thinner thicknesses with superior strength.

thanks

Mike
North Shore Performance Auto

Aluminum will have a lighter density, and you can use more material to get a stiffer structure. Strength depends on many factors, but generally Ti will be stronger.

That said, aluminum works fine for a catback exhaust. Melting point for aluminum is in the 1050-1100 deg F range, and it loses significant mechanical strength around 700-800 deg F. So while the exhaust temps might be around the melting temp, aluminum will have a much higher rate of thermal conductivity than any other exhaust material so it will shed more heat to the ambient air and more of it will stay cooler. Lower material temps mean better mechanical properties.

The short of it, aluminum has been shown to work just fine for an exhaust at least a few feet away from the exhaust ports on tons of cars.

[misfitsfreak81]

Originally Posted by Def

Aluminum will have a lighter density, and you can use more material to get a stiffer structure. Strength depends on many factors, but generally Ti will be stronger.

That said, aluminum works fine for a catback exhaust. Melting point for aluminum is in the 1050-1100 deg F range, and it loses significant mechanical strength around 700-800 deg F. So while the exhaust temps might be around the melting temp, aluminum will have a much higher rate of thermal conductivity than any other exhaust material so it will shed more heat to the ambient air and more of it will stay cooler. Lower material temps mean better mechanical properties.

The short of it, aluminum has been shown to work just fine for an exhaust at least a few feet away from the exhaust ports on tons of cars.

Aluminum has a melting point between 1050 to 1150 degrees Fahrenheit, yet it gets soft and unstable at far lower temps. here is somthing interesting that i found.

ANSI B31.1 (Power Piping Code, 1980 Edition) neither lists allowable stresses for aluminum for temperatures in excess of 400°F nor permits its use at such temperatures. While it's true that exhaust plumbing isn't power piping, it's still a reasonable guideline to follow, and material that's only good to 3000 psi at 400°F will be utterly worthless at 1000°F.

The end near the muffler would corrode do to the combustion gases combined with moisture form Hydrochloric, Sulfuric, Nitric, Carbonic and other acids. That's why the back end of normal carbon steel systems rust out and the real reason stainless steel systems originally started (not the bling factor!)

the bottom line is yes, you can make an exhaust out of aluminum. no, it wont last long. yes, it will be light. yes, you will have to replace it offten.

thanks.

Mike

[C-unit]

Is it possible to make one or maybe a couple for R32 skyline?? I know I can get atleast couple of the skyline guys together if the price is right. I can supply you the dimension too.

[misfitsfreak81]

Originally Posted by C-unit

Is it possible to make one or maybe a couple for R32 skyline?? I know I can get atleast couple of the skyline guys together if the price is right. I can supply you the dimension too.

yeah, the more the merrier. im not trying to descriminate against any car owners out there. i think doing some skyline ones would be awesome. i would need the most exact dimensions that you could get since i dont know anyone local to me with a skyline.

I talked with one of my suppliers today and finally got a quote for some 3" with a .035 thickness. this should be plenty thick for exhaust piping, but im also looking into some .050 thickness as well. the pricing was not as high as i expected it to be but still not cheap. im shooting for pricing to be around the same as retail for a high quality JDM full stainless system. i will be more precise when i complete the first exhaust since i will know how many hours i have into the creation of it.

thanks everybody for the interest. you are really driving me to make this a reality.

Mike
North Shore Performance Auto

[C-unit]

Thanks for the responds..I am thinking..better yet, i'll send you a stock exhaust for mock up if everything works out within budget.

[95KA-Turbo]

I would be willing to take measurements from my Trust DD if you want.


Also, I would recommend looking into 2.5" or 2.25" piping. You will gain massive amounts of ground clearance if you run 2 pipes rather then one single pipe. I can understand this might not be feasible on the pricing you're aiming for...but if it is I'd highly recommend it!


In case you were unsure, the Trust DD is a single pipe into a muffler, then two pipes coming out of the muffler (about a 1.5 fee before the diff) that open up into ~3.5" oval slanted tips.



Fujitsubo makes an exhaust that is 2 pipes the whole time, and basically has more ground clearance then the stock exhaust. I will edit in some pictures of it if I can find them.


Here is the only picture I can find of this exhaust....it isn't very good, but you get the point.





The muffler they're using is super thin because of the two pipes.

[spartanmisfit]

I'm ready for this to be done. Are you going to sell just the mufflers too? I alreadys have 2 full exhaust systems but I hate both of the mufflers.

[Def]

Originally Posted by misfitsfreak81

Aluminum has a melting point between 1050 to 1150 degrees Fahrenheit, yet it gets soft and unstable at far lower temps. here is somthing interesting that i found.

ANSI B31.1 (Power Piping Code, 1980 Edition) neither lists allowable stresses for aluminum for temperatures in excess of 400°F nor permits its use at such temperatures. While it's true that exhaust plumbing isn't power piping, it's still a reasonable guideline to follow, and material that's only good to 3000 psi at 400°F will be utterly worthless at 1000°F.

The end near the muffler would corrode do to the combustion gases combined with moisture form Hydrochloric, Sulfuric, Nitric, Carbonic and other acids. That's why the back end of normal carbon steel systems rust out and the real reason stainless steel systems originally started (not the bling factor!)

the bottom line is yes, you can make an exhaust out of aluminum. no, it wont last long. yes, it will be light. yes, you will have to replace it offten.

thanks.

Mike

The pressure inside a catback is barely above ambient, so that's not a design consideration.

TONS of Hondas have proven aluminum cat back exhausts work just fine. They don't stand up to scraping as well as stainless steel due to being softer, but other than that no reason it wouldn't last a very long time if it is properly designed.

The minimal acid exposure will affect 304 stainless about as much as 6061 aluminum.



As for the thickness of the Ti, I definitely wouldn't go over 0.035" wall. 0.028" wall should work just fine if you support it well(full wrap around hangers and gussets on the flanges).

[misfitsfreak81]

Originally Posted by Def

The pressure inside a catback is barely above ambient, so that's not a design consideration.

TONS of Hondas have proven aluminum cat back exhausts work just fine. They don't stand up to scraping as well as stainless steel due to being softer, but other than that no reason it wouldn't last a very long time if it is properly designed.

The minimal acid exposure will affect 304 stainless about as much as 6061 aluminum.


As for the thickness of the Ti, I definitely wouldn't go over 0.035" wall. 0.028" wall should work just fine if you support it well(full wrap around hangers and gussets on the flanges).

Right on, I appreciate the info. Currently Im not planning on doing any aluminum exhausts though. In the future it is something I may play with just to see how long they would hold up. Im sure some of it would depend on where people live and what kind of conditions they drive in as well as the conditions of the roads.

Originally Posted by spartanmisfit

I'm ready for this to be done. Are you going to sell just the mufflers too? I alreadys have 2 full exhaust systems but I hate both of the mufflers.

I can get just the mufflers if thats all you are interested in. Im ready for this to be started as well. however my suppliers are somewhat dragging their feet. its kinda to be expected though for the order size im looking for. if i had $20000 to order a few hundred feet at a time im sure theyd be doing backflips to fill my needs. let me know if you would like me to get you a price on the muffler. thanks.

Originally Posted by 95KA-Turbo

I would be willing to take measurements from my Trust DD if you want.


Also, I would recommend looking into 2.5" or 2.25" piping. You will gain massive amounts of ground clearance if you run 2 pipes rather then one single pipe. I can understand this might not be feasible on the pricing you're aiming for...but if it is I'd highly recommend it!


In case you were unsure, the Trust DD is a single pipe into a muffler, then two pipes coming out of the muffler (about a 1.5 fee before the diff) that open up into ~3.5" oval slanted tips.



Fujitsubo makes an exhaust that is 2 pipes the whole time, and basically has more ground clearance then the stock exhaust. I will edit in some pictures of it if I can find them.


Here is the only picture I can find of this exhaust....it isn't very good, but you get the point.





The muffler they're using is super thin because of the two pipes.

yeah messurements would be great for the DD. using two pipes would get great ground clearance but would more than double the price just because of material costs.

Originally Posted by C-unit

Thanks for the responds..I am thinking..better yet, i'll send you a stock exhaust for mock up if everything works out within budget.

yeah you could certainly send me a stock exhaust. right now i have access to my s14 and also a s13. it would be great to get a skyline one and maybe and fd3s as well.

thanks again everyone. I hope to have prices up tomorrow. keep checking back and feel free to shoot me any questions or suggestions.

Mike
North Shore Performance Auto

[95KA-Turbo]

You will need to use two pipes at some point if you're going to make it anything like a Trust DD. The reason that exhaust is so saught after (other then the fact that it sounds amazing and looks great) is because of the ground clearance it offers.

Not to say that people wouldn't buy more of a Dart Izumi styled exhaust...but I just know I wouldn't because to put a muffler under a car that has 3" inlets and outlets requires that the muffler be at least 4" thick. Not to mention there isn't enough room to bend the exhaust up high enough near the diff to offer as great of ground clearance as the DD offers.....unless you can get oval piping, which would be freaking awesome!


I know my muffler hits on speed bumps and what not and it hangs ~1" lower then the "frame rails" under the car. Most of my friend's exhausts hang a whole inch lower then mine does.

I fully believe that if you have a S14 to build this exhaust on you wont have any issues with making it tuck up extremely well. It just wont be as effective as having two pipes (at least in the rear section).





Let me know what sort of measurements you need.

[misfitsfreak81]

Originally Posted by 95KA-Turbo

You will need to use two pipes at some point if you're going to make it anything like a Trust DD. The reason that exhaust is so saught after (other then the fact that it sounds amazing and looks great) is because of the ground clearance it offers.

Not to say that people wouldn't buy more of a Dart Izumi styled exhaust...but I just know I wouldn't because to put a muffler under a car that has 3" inlets and outlets requires that the muffler be at least 4" thick. Not to mention there isn't enough room to bend the exhaust up high enough near the diff to offer as great of ground clearance as the DD offers.....unless you can get oval piping, which would be freaking awesome!


I know my muffler hits on speed bumps and what not and it hangs ~1" lower then the "frame rails" under the car. Most of my friend's exhausts hang a whole inch lower then mine does.

I fully believe that if you have a S14 to build this exhaust on you wont have any issues with making it tuck up extremely well. It just wont be as effective as having two pipes (at least in the rear section).





Let me know what sort of measurements you need.

agreed, ground clearance is a major issue. like ive said befor i will try to tuck it up as far as possible. BUT... there is always the fact that you can raise the ride height just a bit on your coilovers. i know i will probly piss some people off by sugesting that haha. its up to each user what is an acceptable ride height both for performance as well as looks.

Mike
North Shore Performance Auto

[C-unit]

Here is some suggestion, I don't know if you have consider it when you do the drawing. You can put the exhaust mount on a Clamp n clamp it around the exhaust. This way, you don't have to make the mount as precise and take some stress off the exhaust as well.

[screaminfast]

Lots of interesting information in here. I think I might stick with stainless though because we are going to coat the entire exhaust with swaintech coating and also heatwrap it.

Originally Posted by xs240

^Off topic but your avatar seats are f'en sexy... i want. What are they

Cobra Evolution S

[misfitsfreak81]

Originally Posted by screaminfast

Lots of interesting information in here. I think I might stick with stainless though because we are going to coat the entire exhaust with swaintech coating and also heatwrap it.


Cobra Evolution S

In the future I will probly do some stainless as well. Im not positive but im guessing the cost to swaintech coat an entire exhaust would be more expense than its worth. they charge like $170 and up just to do a turbo manifold. dont get me wrong, the shit is sweet, I just dont know how much of a benefit doing the whole thing would be. I would totally recomend against using header wrap. youll have well over $100 into the wrap and it mostlikely will just rot away since its under the car.

Originally Posted by C-unit

Here is some suggestion, I don't know if you have consider it when you do the drawing. You can put the exhaust mount on a Clamp n clamp it around the exhaust. This way, you don't have to make the mount as precise and take some stress off the exhaust as well.

Thanks for the info. that is how I was planing on doing the hangers.

as a note to all who have expressed interest on this topic you may be happy to know that I have secured a titanium supplier that has exactly the size tubing im looking for and a pretty much unlimited supply of it. also the pricing is not all that steep and will surely come down as i order in larger quantitys. Im hoping to have start the fabbing on this in the next couple of weeks hopefully. after the first one is done and ready to go i may consider doing a group buy type sell to be sure everyone gets the best price possible. I will be sure to post more info as I have it. thanks again.

Mike

North Shore Performance Auto

[genericforumname]

any way you would make it with a double tip to make it look more factory? I would love to have a Ti exhaust but hate those n1 style cans, draws too much attention.