JWT vs Enthalpy ECU comparison dyno results!! *Another* 400 whp CodyAce Built Car

[jspaeth]

If you were detonating, why would you be shooting flames?

(Seriously, I don't know why....I would think of you detonate, you are igniting TOO early, and most of the fuel should get burned up (no flame shooting)).

Generally, I see my knock count right around 20 during hard pulls.

It increases with RPM....used to be lower, but when I added higher lift cams and stiffer springs, it went up a LITTLE.

Every once in a while, I will see some knock in the 30s and VERY rarely get a blip in the 50s.


Sometimes, the high knock counts come during shifts and can be caused by piston slap (or so I have heard).

I only HEARD actual knocking one time, and that was bc I mis-calibrated my boost controller and overboosted like 2-3 psi above where my car was tuned for.

[HemiCharger]

Originally Posted by jspaeth

If you were detonating, why would you be shooting flames?

(Seriously, I don't know why....I would think of you detonate, you are igniting TOO early, and most of the fuel should get burned up (no flame shooting)).

Generally, I see my knock count right around 20 during hard pulls.

It increases with RPM....used to be lower, but when I added higher lift cams and stiffer springs, it went up a LITTLE.

Every once in a while, I will see some knock in the 30s and VERY rarely get a blip in the 50s.


Sometimes, the high knock counts come during shifts and can be caused by piston slap (or so I have heard).

I only HEARD actual knocking one time, and that was bc I mis-calibrated my boost controller and overboosted like 2-3 psi above where my car was tuned for.

yeah mine will stay low sometimes and then under certain load situations maybe going up hill or something it will spike. DO not know if it is actual knock though since I can not hear anything sometimes. It has been smoothed out some from street tuning but I am in the central US. Not many people within 300 miles can even tune on a Power FC.

[4x4le]

Originally Posted by jspaeth

If you were detonating, why would you be shooting flames?

(Seriously, I don't know why....I would think of you detonate, you are igniting TOO early, and most of the fuel should get burned up (no flame shooting)).

Generally, I see my knock count right around 20 during hard pulls.

It increases with RPM....used to be lower, but when I added higher lift cams and stiffer springs, it went up a LITTLE.

Every once in a while, I will see some knock in the 30s and VERY rarely get a blip in the 50s.


Sometimes, the high knock counts come during shifts and can be caused by piston slap (or so I have heard).

I only HEARD actual knocking one time, and that was bc I mis-calibrated my boost controller and overboosted like 2-3 psi above where my car was tuned for.

Im glad someone caught that finially, but not with the lol I expected. Hemi charger said something about cody's smoke/vapor and asked if that was detenation. I loled and was trying to see if he would have something to say.

My car would pop some flames when the exhaust gets real hot when i let off sometimes so i decided to do a coil/plug flame thrower that i turn on when i drift to gaurentee it. The fans love it! Drifters can get away with a little rice amongst each other.

[HemiCharger]

Originally Posted by 4x4le

Im glad someone caught that finially, but not with the lol I expected. Hemi charger said something about cody's smoke/vapor and asked if that was detenation. I loled and was trying to see if he would have something to say.

My car would pop some flames when the exhaust gets real hot when i let off sometimes so i decided to do a coil/plug flame thrower that i turn on when i drift to gaurentee it. The fans love it! Drifters can get away with a little rice amongst each other.

I have heard the supersonic ping sound of detonation before. I just call it spark knock since I do not know what else to call it. I have not had problem since all I run now is 93 Shell V Power but it did have trouble with MFA and BP fuels but they also can contain 10-15 percent ethanol.

[SoSideways]

If they have ethanol in it, your car shouldn't be detonating just due to the fact that ethanol has a much higher tolerance to not detonating.

Your gas mileage will suffer a little, but you shouldn't be blowing anything up.

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by SoSideways

If they have ethanol in it, your car shouldn't be detonating just due to the fact that ethanol has a much higher tolerance to not detonating.

Your gas mileage will suffer a little, but you shouldn't be blowing anything up.

That is not necessarily true.

Because when you DO tune for ethanol, from a volumetric standpoint, you need to inject MORE of it than gasoline....

So, actually, I would expect running 10% ethanol gasoline to maybe cause problems.

[HemiCharger]

Originally Posted by jspaeth

That is not necessarily true.

Because when you DO tune for ethanol, from a volumetric standpoint, you need to inject MORE of it than gasoline....

So, actually, I would expect running 10% ethanol gasoline to maybe cause problems.

It is the only thing that makes since. I have filled up with 93 octane and those I have had trouble with are ethanol blends of 10-15 percent per volume. The higher octane fuels without ethanol such as shell's v power I have not had any trouble and if you could find some Amoco 103 fuels I am sure it would do even better. Factory tuned SR20DETs where meant to run on 98+ Fuels.

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

It is the only thing that makes since. I have filled up with 93 octane and those I have had trouble with are ethanol blends of 10-15 percent per volume. The higher octane fuels without ethanol such as shell's v power I have not had any trouble and if you could find some Amoco 103 fuels I am sure it would do even better. Factory tuned SR20DETs where meant to run on 98+ Fuels.

98+ fuels is in terms of Japanese octane rating, which is not the same US.

93 octane is PERFECTLY fine.


And yes, the 10-15% ethanol blend COULD cause knock if you were tuned on 93 octane and let's say tuned very aggressively.


You COULD use a gasoline/ethanol mixture, but the volume of ethanol required to combust all of the air is more than for gasoline....


So....when you get that 10% ethanol blend, your car's injectors are injecting a certain amount, bc this is based on it being pure gasoline.

In order to achieve the same combustion as if it WERE all gasoline, that volume of ethanol that is now being injected in each "burst" would actually need to be larger than it is, to account for the fact that it is ethanol and not gasoline.


In practice, with a standalone, if you get a bad tank of gas or get some ethanol, you could just go in to your setting and add an extra ~5% fuel to take care of this....

[HemiCharger]

Originally Posted by jspaeth

the 10-15% ethanol blend COULD cause knock if you were tuned on 93 octane and let's say tuned very aggressively.

I do not know what you mean by aggressive? High boost for me is around 17.5-18 lbs and that is only when I had trouble even with the blended gas boosting at low levels or waste-gate 8 lbs it never would knock. Only up top on high boost when I had blended gas in the car.

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

I do not know what you mean by aggressive? High boost for me is around 17.5-18 lbs and that is only when I had trouble even with the blended gas boosting at low levels or waste-gate 8 lbs it never would knock. Only up top on high boost when I had blended gas in the car.

AGGRESSIVE = a lot of timing and AFRs in the 12+ range under heavy boost.

Theoretically that could be just fine, bu 10% ethanol may be enough to make that knock.

[HemiCharger]

Originally Posted by jspaeth

AGGRESSIVE = a lot of timing and AFRs in the 12+ range under heavy boost.

Theoretically that could be just fine, bu 10% ethanol may be enough to make that knock.

guess that would cover it. How much knock will our engines take without doing damage to them? I think they are pretty stout engines. Of course once I picked up on what it was doing I stopped pushing it until I could get the better gas in the car then I could boost the hell out of it.

what is the easiest way to learn engine dynamics?

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

guess that would cover it. How much knock will our engines take without doing damage to them? I think they are pretty stout engines. Of course once I picked up on what it was doing I stopped pushing it until I could get the better gas in the car then I could boost the hell out of it.

what is the easiest way to learn engine dynamics?

Honestly, I just do a bunch of reading and searching....

From what I have heard, the rods are pretty strong, but the pistons are potentially weak....a lot of people upgrade the pistons if you are gonna push it past 400 hp....

[2fast4y0u]

my knock sensor must not work...i have NEVER seen knock on my afc settings and i do have it hooked up. even under hard pulls pushing 19 psi with 11.8 afr. no knock at all...reading anyway, not sure in actuality. doesnt sounds like there is

[HemiCharger]

Power FC is there a way to lock or password protect your tune so some Dickhead at a car show or whatever does not come along and play pac man with you commander? or just disconnect the commander before the show?

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

Power FC is there a way to lock or password protect your tune so some Dickhead at a car show or whatever does not come along and play pac man with you commander? or just disconnect the commander before the show?

Honestly, you can just unplug it....but let's try to keep the convo on topic...we are really killing this thread hahaha

[HemiCharger]

Originally Posted by jspaeth

Honestly, you can just unplug it....but let's try to keep the convo on topic...we are really killing this thread hahaha

yeah thanks

[4x4le]

the talk about ethonal in the gas i really would like to chime in on. the theory about the need for more fuel to burn the air when ethonal is involved is correct, but as long as your richer than 14.7 on a o2 sensor calabrated for gasoline, all of the oxygen has been burnt. when you run rich during boost that extra fuel is mearly there to cool the cylender. since ethonal is far superior for cooling than gas the 10-15% will negate itself (always).

now lets talk about octain ratings. if you read at the pump it will say minium octain rating. what that means is it can be higher but cannot be lower than advertised (just like treadwear ratings on tires). your shell gas in your area could possibly be 94 or 95 and when you switch to other brands they might just be closer to their advertised rating.

i have found that the best gas in my area comes from a station advertising it as 92 but it kickes every other stations butt for detenation suppression.


i find it funny most people blame ethonal for everything and try to find gas with no ethonal in it, while i would love to find some ethonal with no gas in it. how can ethonal be the reason i make such good power while at the same time its the reason others complain of trouble?

my best suggestion would be to find the best gas you can, with the most ethonal as you can and tune from there.



Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by 4x4le

i find it funny most people blame ethonal for everything and try to find gas with no ethonal in it, while i would love to find some ethonal with no gas in it. how can ethonal be the reason i make such good power while at the same time its the reason others complain of trouble?

This is only true if you are tuned for it, and when you do, you need to inject more ethanol than gasoline, (volume).

So, ethanol is all fine and dandy, IF YOU can know how much ethanol % is in the fuel.


Tune for ethanol or 15% ethanol. and get a gas with MORE gasoline, you are okay.

Tune for pure gasoline and get ethanol in there = POSSIBLE problems

[codyace]

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

x2 -- my tune is spot on to Shell V Power 93 anything else and it wants to spark knock under certain loads. That is what I had it tuned on and that is what she likes. No other fuel is quite as good as it but it is all around me right now. I will hit you up on pm. Yeah I definitely do not want to screw around with it too much thansk

Sounds like your tune is super agressive/unsafe to be quite honest. V POwer has 10% in it as well, not a big difference from anythign else. Sure certain gas 'may' be better, but 9/10 times the fuel comes from the same main 'source' when you're not near a port.

I'd say this: If my car pinged on everything but SHell 93, I'd consider a retune with less timing jacked into it. It's not worth it to me.

Originally Posted by 4x4le

That is acceptible because there was most likely allot of back pressure at that point and the internal gate can only do so much.

Yep! This is quite common, and so many people don't understand it. Glad you posted this, as it's a very very normal thing. THat little quarter sized hole just can't keep up hehe.

This is also another reason I went external and have NOT looked back since. Man is it such a nice basic upgrade. I tried every single actuator, as multiple pre loads and simply didn't like it.

Originally Posted by 4x4le

My point is dont take knock sensor reading with a grain of salt if your getting them, but dont rely on them and dont expect them to work when its most important. Please do not base your tune off of a knock sensor.

Correct. I know a lot of people who swear by KS and many who don't even look at them...but much of that comes through experience and through trial/error for sure. As you said, they are a great tool, much like AFR. Neither is always 100%

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

I do not know what you mean by aggressive? High boost for me is around 17.5-18 lbs and that is only when I had trouble even with the blended gas boosting at low levels or waste-gate 8 lbs it never would knock. Only up top on high boost when I had blended gas in the car.

Again, if you are that stringent on fuel type, the tune is way to unsafe for a true street car. All the cars I'm involved with are tuned on 91 for this reason.

Originally Posted by 4x4le

i find it funny most people blame ethonal for everything and try to find gas with no ethonal in it, while i would love to find some ethonal with no gas in it. how can ethonal be the reason i make such good power while at the same time its the reason others complain of trouble?

Well, to be fair though E85 is a completly different monster compared to 10/15% blend for sure. I'd love to have more E-85 available in my area, but it's simply not common outside of the NYC or Philly Market.

[4x4le]

All im saying is i have NEVER seen more than a .2-.3 difference in a afr. maybe i just tune on the safe side but no one has ever complained to me about not being able to go from station

[codyace]

Originally Posted by 4x4le

All im saying is i have NEVER seen more than a .2-.3 difference in a afr. maybe i just tune on the safe side but no one has ever complained to me about not being able to go from station

Totally agreed. Kids avoid the E-10 stations in town, yet I goto them and have no issues lol.

[jspaeth]

Originally Posted by codyace

Totally agreed. Kids avoid the E-10 stations in town, yet I goto them and have no issues lol.

This is just smart tuning practice tho....tune on 91 and you are fine.

For me, I usually put in 93...

If I am going to tune my car more aggressively, and not have to be SUPER PARANOID about 10% ethanol, then I should tune it ON 10% ethanol.

This way, when I do use 93, no big deal, but when I get 10% ethanol, I am safe...

Same thing really as tuning on 91

[2fast4y0u]

i have ran bp 93 since i got my swap done in 05. never had issues.

i have a 04 wrx daily driver and it states to only run premium in that as well..i use 87 octane from a farmers gas station...i get 25 mpg city and 32 highway. its bone stock minus an intake.
things runs like a champ.


back to the bp fuel. i will check my local station and see what it says as far as ethanol content.

[TurboB15sentra]

Flames/popping between shifts, or, on decel, is typically caused by a MAF overrun.. When you close the throttle, the turbo will keep drawing in air for a second, and even if recirculated, you will get some overrun, typically. When this happens, the throttle is closed, and for a split second, the MAF tells the ECU, to spray fuel when it isn't needed.. The engine flashes rich for a second, between shifts, and you get some raw fuel into the turbo. When it meets with enough fresh air to attain the right mixture, it will explode.. making a small pop, and sometimes, flames out of the muffler.

Travis

[4x4le]

it happens on map cars as well. another cause many dont think about is lots of fuel flow coming from the injectors and a sudden shut off of the air flow to the IM.

I dont know if you noticed where i mentioned most of my flames are ignited by a spark plug in my tip. I noticed occasional flames only when my exhaust was super hot and thought it was neat so I put together a flame thrower kit to make sure they happen. Its rice everyone can enjoy!



Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk

[HemiCharger]

I run shell 93 V Power cause I like it and it burns a lot cleaner than other premium fuels as well. If I want to run other gas just turn down to wastegate boost and then I do not have a problem. I run the 93 V- Power in my 2 liter turbo A4 Audi and get 30-35 miles per gallon and make good power with it on the Shell fuels. The guy who tuned my car did not do it on the edge at all but you are probably right I should have tuned the car on 91 or a blended fuel but all my turbo cars from the Audi to the Nissan love the Shell V-Power fuel so that is what I run.

[TurboB15sentra]

Originally Posted by 4x4le

it happens on map cars as well. another cause many dont think about is lots of fuel flow coming from the injectors and a sudden shut off of the air flow to the IM.

I dont know if you noticed where i mentioned most of my flames are ignited by a spark plug in my tip. I noticed occasional flames only when my exhaust was super hot and thought it was neat so I put together a flame thrower kit to make sure they happen. Its rice everyone can enjoy!



Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk

Interesting.. I've never seen a MAP car pop.. I guess you could get some residual fuel, for a split second, from the time that the ECU sees the manifold pressure change and/or the TPS change.. Especially in an engine with larger injectors.

Heh.. I had a "flame thrower" on my twin turbo Mustang.. Open wastegate dumps, exiting right by the front tires/bumper, always provides for some nice flamage.

Travis

[HemiCharger]

Originally Posted by TurboB15sentra

Interesting.. I've never seen a MAP car pop.. I guess you could get some residual fuel, for a split second, from the time that the ECU sees the manifold pressure change and/or the TPS change.. Especially in an engine with larger injectors.

Heh.. I had a "flame thrower" on my twin turbo Mustang.. Open wastegate dumps, exiting right by the front tires/bumper, always provides for some nice flamage.

Travis

I need to clarify my statements a little. My sr20 runs better on Shell 93 v power but I have also had luck with Exxon 93 and Phillips 93. Sometimes due to qualities of the gas you get and impurities such as water and such the gas grades are not the same. From time to time you are bound to get some not so standard 93 octane especially in blended fuels. that is all I am saying. I run shell cause it burns clean no black tailpipe or on bumper and cleans engine valve-train of carbon. Or at least it claims it does.

[codyace]

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

I run shell 93 V Power cause I like it and it burns a lot cleaner than other premium fuels as well.

Is that what you can prove, or just what you saw on TV?

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

The guy who tuned my car did not do it on the edge at all but you are probably right I should have tuned the car on 91 or a blended fuel but all my turbo cars from the Audi to the Nissan love the Shell V-Power fuel so that is what I run.

If it pings on anything but Shell, then yes it's tuned way to aggressivly. Why do you need see this fact (especially when everyone is telling you this). A gas rated @ 93 Octane should damn near be the same in regard to detonation resistance. To say Shell > Sunoco or whatever other quality brand, is rediculous.

PS: The lower quality/octane a gas in a dailyish driven car usually nets the most MPG...it's simply easier to burn. I always run 91 on long trips as it gets mid 30's cruising @ 65/70

You're a very frustrating new member.

Originally Posted by HemiCharger

I run shell cause it burns clean no black tailpipe or on bumper and cleans engine valve-train of carbon. Or at least it claims it does.

Do you really know anything, or do you just repeat information you see on TV?

'it burns cleaner as their is no black on tailpipe' tends to tell me you've got a bunch of timing in it. The only clean turbo car tail pipes I know of run leaded

[HemiCharger]

Originally Posted by codyace

Is that what you can prove, or just what you saw on TV?



If it pings on anything but Shell, then yes it's tuned way to aggressivly. Why do you need see this fact (especially when everyone is telling you this). A gas rated @ 93 Octane should damn near be the same in regard to detonation resistance. To say Shell > Sunoco or whatever other quality brand, is rediculous.

did you read my last statement - I said I have had good luck with Phillips and Exxon as well their 93 does not ping in my car. I had some BP I got one time in another state that pinged like crazy under high boost. So, I will just assume I got some bad gas or something.

Originally Posted by codyace

PS: The lower quality/octane a gas in a dailyish driven car usually nets the most MPG...it's simply easier to burn. I always run 91 on long trips as it gets mid 30's cruising @ 65/70

You're a very frustrating new member.

gee thanks. What does that have to do with this discussion?

Originally Posted by codyace

Do you really know anything, or do you just repeat information you see on TV?

'it burns cleaner as their is no black on tailpipe' tends to tell me you've got a bunch of timing in it. The only clean turbo car tail pipes I know of run leaded

My Audi is another one. It had black carbon build up on the tailpipes when I got it. I have since polished it and run only Shell premium. Higher octane fuels especially Shell 93 and BP Ultimate Euro blend are the best fuels that you could possibly run for a 2.0 liter turbo motor. If you do not believe me then research it yourself at bob the oil guy dot com. You see a lot of carbon build up and deposits with lower octane fuels. I have been around forced induction cars and trucks for a long time and know that when you see missing, bad fuel consumption, and black crap all over your tailpipe and bumper then it is usually from the type and quality of fuel you are using. Keep on using the whateverco 91 and saving the 30 or 40 cents per -- I am sticking with the premium grades and running only Mobile 1 oil in the 240 and Euro Syntec Castrol in the Audi. thanks

http://www.shell.us/home/content/usa...en_030209.html

this from an online discussion

I've heard from friends in the oil business that Shell purchases gasoline from the top of tanks, so there are less sediments in Shell gas. The octane rating on the fuel is also sometimes slightly higher than advertised.

so I will lend more credence to the scientists at Shell who developed the stuff than to some online race discussion guru who thinks they know everything.