Drift entrance techniques/form

[fckillerbee]

Originally Posted by Perfect Balance

I think in the case of a 240sx, which have McPherson struts up front with a lot of caster, a lot of camber up front helps keep the tires flat while countersteering to provide grip for adjusting the car or braking, which in a drift car is more important than cornering grip, especially considering that it is only used on turn in. Overdoing the camber will still introduce understeer though, but a driver can work around that with weight transfer, end result being a car that is more controllable during a drift. I.e. when it's doing most of it's work.

I imagine in the rear you would want to run less camber than you would for grip, since like you said there are less lateral forces being applied. This used to make perfect sense until people started running positive camber on the rear in Formula D. I have no freaking clue what that does and how that works, so my view on rear camber in drift cars is subject to change.

according to the guy that does forsebergs car. it's because the suspension acts differently under load. Almost opposite of a 240. Again..from what I've been told.

[Perfect Balance]

That's kind of the story I heard too, but, it might just be at zero, but it looks like these cars are also running positive camber.









Then again it might just be me. If they aren't running positive camber, then they're running right at 0, which still doesn't really make sense to me as far as making it drift faster.

[Houseof1817]

with the amount of power that those cars are distributing to the ground, why would there be the need to worry about the tire speed catching up.

[Perfect Balance]

Originally Posted by Houseof1817

with the amount of power that those cars are distributing to the ground, why would there be the need to worry about the tire speed catching up.

It has more to do with going faster than with whatever you're talking about. More grip = more speed.

[Houseof1817]

yeah, they initiate at a higher speed yet retain a full contact patch. im loosing you and your claim to irrelevancy

[Perfect Balance]

Originally Posted by Houseof1817

yeah, they initiate at a higher speed yet retain a full contact patch. im loosing you and your claim to irrelevancy

With 0 camber, in a drift , you will only be using the outside edge of the outside tire, and the inside edge of the inside tire during the drift. With some negative camber, they will still be able to use the entire outside tire, which is the one with most grip in the corner anyway, therefore giving the car more grip during the grip, and as a result, more speed. The inside tire won't have much grip, but it has the least potential for grip anyway because it's on the inside and unloaded.

I fail to see how having 0 camber, or what appear to be positive camber, helps during a drift.

I'm still lost as what you mean by "tire speed catching up".

[!Zar!]

Originally Posted by fckillerbee

mercer right?

from what I could imagine. Road cars achieve more G's in a corner than a drift car would. I would think that upon first initiating, we would achieve the maximum amount of g forces, and once settled and on thorrle, the g forces would be moved in another direction, and those suspension settings would be more prominent to a drag car with less traction.

road cars have what...all 4 tires using friction. vs a drift car would have foward traction coming from the rear, as well as lateral traction. But the front tires would not add too much traction laterally as they should be pointing in the direction we are trying to acheive.

I guess I couldn't imagine a drift cars front tires being used as heavily as a road cars front tires.




any expert opinions? You've been driving for a while....anything you notice in your fc?

Mercer? I'm not Chmercer lol. While I do agree that drift cars are not maintaining G-forces as long as actual road race cars, they are still experiencing body roll.

This picture shows that the full face of the tire is now hitting the ground (which in turn will give more grip) due to camber. I have experienced this personally in terms of grip. When I ran more camber in back, my car was able to gain speed faster due to the fact that there was more tire contacting the ground. Subsequently, running too little camber in back will make the car feel a little twitchy during transitions, and over all; but that can be more towards what tire you run.

Originally Posted by Perfect Balance

I think in the case of a 240sx, which have McPherson struts up front with a lot of caster, a lot of camber up front helps keep the tires flat while countersteering to provide grip for adjusting the car or braking, which in a drift car is more important than cornering grip, especially considering that it is only used on turn in. Overdoing the camber will still introduce understeer though, but a driver can work around that with weight transfer, end result being a car that is more controllable during a drift. I.e. when it's doing most of it's work.

I imagine in the rear you would want to run less camber than you would for grip, since like you said there are less lateral forces being applied. This used to make perfect sense until people started running positive camber on the rear in Formula D. I have no freaking clue what that does and how that works, so my view on rear camber in drift cars is subject to change.

For the front, you definitely want to run camber being as how as you mentioned, with our cars, they start going positive once you turn the wheel. Yes, too much camber up front does give you reduced grip during initiation. Best bet is to try and run as little camber as your caster/knuckle setup allows. Generally you would like to have the full face touching the ground at lock, and adjust camber accordingly to have such happen.

Originally Posted by Perfect Balance

That's kind of the story I heard too, but, it might just be at zero, but it looks like these cars are also running positive camber.

(pictures)
Then again it might just be me. If they aren't running positive camber, then they're running right at 0, which still doesn't really make sense to me as far as making it drift faster.

Only person I have heard from multiple people running positive camber in rear is Forsberg. I know Matt Fields isn't running positive camber in rear.

Originally Posted by Perfect Balance

With 0 camber, in a drift , you will only be using the outside edge of the outside tire, and the inside edge of the inside tire during the drift. With some negative camber, they will still be able to use the entire outside tire, which is the one with most grip in the corner anyway, therefore giving the car more grip during the grip, and as a result, more speed. The inside tire won't have much grip, but it has the least potential for grip anyway because it's on the inside and unloaded.

I fail to see how having 0 camber, or what appear to be positive camber, helps during a drift.

I'm still lost as what you mean by "tire speed catching up".

You all need to remember that a lot of these cars are running softer suspension setups, so on some of them they gain camber as they squat. Possibly on Forsberg's car he has static positive camber, but once he is on the throttle and the car squats the camber goes negative.

Also, grip is attained through running rear toe as well, camber isn't the only source of rear end grip.

[Perfect Balance]

Originally Posted by !Zar!

You all need to remember that a lot of these cars are running softer suspension setups, so on some of them they gain camber as they squat. Possibly on Forsberg's car he has static positive camber, but once he is on the throttle and the car squats the camber goes negative.

I actually thought of this as well, but the car clearly has positive camber even during a drift, so that couldn't be it, although that might explain the near 0 camber on the other cars. 240s really gain a lot of camber (well, lose, technically) upon compression.

[fckillerbee]

Originally Posted by !Zar!

Mercer? I'm not Chmercer lol. .

I thought I saw you post mercer's car in a thread. He also has the "gentleman" thing going on. lol so I was just putting two and two.


a lot of us also have to realize this is really big on drivers preference/style tire. Who knows...maybe the fact that some tires have stiffer sidewall than the inside tire, so running positive camber could also help traction since it's putting more pressure on the corner.

shit I don't know. I've just been told by the dude that put his car together that the geometry on the Z is different, and that's why they run those settings.

it's kinda like the neg front camber.

some like it cause it gives them more control on full lock. While others i'm sure run less so that you actually scrub front traction (allowing more angle). You have sooo many variables. The biggest one being driver preference/style.



I'll ask my buddy's at mazdatrix for kyles setup. See what he's doing. lol

[iamtheyi]

There's too much intelligence going on here for me.

[nathanong87]

Originally Posted by Perfect Balance

That's kind of the story I heard too, but, it might just be at zero, but it looks like these cars are also running positive camber.

Then again it might just be me. If they aren't running positive camber, then they're running right at 0, which still doesn't really make sense to me as far as making it drift faster.

some start at positive because under compression the car will squat and gain more negative camber. so while on throttle that car has like 0 camber or something.

[Perfect Balance]

Originally Posted by nathanong87

some start at positive because under compression the car will squat and gain more negative camber. so while on throttle that car has like 0 camber or something.

Yeah that's pretty much the conclusion that I've come to. I just thought you would still want a degree or so of negative camber while drifting, which they don't appear to have.

Makes me wonder if people actually determined the normal amount of suspension compression during a typical drift and then loaded the car and aligned it and stuff, or if it was some half assed alignment job and now it looks like it's got a bunch of positive camber, and all they know is that it works better than when they had -2 degree of static camber. I'd hope not.

It does make sense though, so I guess my question at this point is why 0 degrees of camber in a drift is best, where I would imagine at least a decent bit a negative camber would be beneficial.

I think we may be getting off topic though.

[fckillerbee]

Originally Posted by Perfect Balance

Yeah that's pretty much the conclusion that I've come to. I just thought you would still want a degree or so of negative camber while drifting, which they don't appear to have.

Makes me wonder if people actually determined the normal amount of suspension compression during a typical drift and then loaded the car and aligned it and stuff, or if it was some half assed alignment job and now it looks like it's got a bunch of positive camber, and all they know is that it works better than when they had -2 degree of static camber. I'd hope not.

It does make sense though, so I guess my question at this point is why 0 degrees of camber in a drift is best, where I would imagine at least a decent bit a negative camber would be beneficial.

I think we may be getting off topic though.

think of it this way. Why don't drag cars run crazy negative camber.

well simple...they are going in a straight line.

in order to get the forward traction...you have to tune your rear..much like a drag car. these guys are starting to figure that out.

as far as alignment specs, I'm pretty sure they use camera's to tape movement of the suspension arms, and did an alignment...took tire temperatures, and went from there. I would seriously die if I found out they "guessed" on a drift setup.

[Brian]

too advanced. brain explode.

[Perfect Balance]

Originally Posted by fckillerbee

think of it this way. Why don't drag cars run crazy negative camber.

well simple...they are going in a straight line.

in order to get the forward traction...you have to tune your rear..much like a drag car. these guys are starting to figure that out.

as far as alignment specs, I'm pretty sure they use camera's to tape movement of the suspension arms, and did an alignment...took tire temperatures, and went from there. I would seriously die if I found out they "guessed" on a drift setup.

Yeah, but getting forward traction when going straight isn't the same as getting forward traction when lateral forces are applied and the car has body roll, and the tires aren't loaded the same.

Of course, I'll admit I'm kind of lost when it comes to aligning a car to make it do something better that it's not intended to do. I'm just thinking along the lines of grip car. The way I see it, a grip car has a bit of negative camber to allow it to utilize the tires with the most grip in a corner, allowing it to corner faster. In a drift situation, the tires with the most grip are the same as in a grip car, (the outside tires) so if you can do the same thing, you will have more grip, thus allowing the car to have more grip, and therefore more speed through the corner.

EDIT: Honestly, I don't really care for my personal car, but I'd like to know why things are done the way they are, just to know how to do it "properly".

[fckillerbee]

whats amazing out of all this....is that we have been doing it for less than 10 years. japanland has 10 years on us.

And we still don't even know what would be a perfect "drift setup".

Momentum has a lot to do with getting the car around a corner in a drift. while the rear tires push the car forwards. If you notice, when drivers are trying to pickup speed, they run very little angle.

In a grip situation, you have lateral grip "x" and forward grip "y"...both of those have to equal "z (100% friction)".

In drifting, the front tires don't have a huge amount of lateral force (as the tires are to direct the vehicle...rather than hold grip). So thinking about that, means that the rear tires have to "push" to keep the car going forward, while the momentum helps keep the car sliding sideways.

I really wish would could get some pro's logic behind their setups.

[Perfect Balance]

Originally Posted by fckillerbee

I really wish would could get some pro's logic behind their setups.

Yeah really.

I would reply to the rest of your post but I don't really know what to say. Obviously we aren't debating one thing or another, I think we're on the same page but we're not sure whats the ideal setup.

I don't really know if running some camber = more lateral grip = more speed required to continue the drift through the corner because it's got a higher grip potential, and therefore = more speed in the corner.

OR, if somewhat of a "drag" setup = more forward traction = you can carry more speed into a corner and not slide off the track because the tires have enough forward grip to keep you pushing into the inside.

Seems like both ways are plausible, but I don't know which one is more effective. I feel like trying to have the "best of both world" would just lead to something that isn't good for either way.

[fckillerbee]

Originally Posted by Perfect Balance

Yeah really.

I would reply to the rest of your post but I don't really know what to say. Obviously we aren't debating one thing or another, I think we're on the same page but we're not sure whats the ideal setup.

I don't really know if running some camber = more lateral grip = more speed required to continue the drift through the corner because it's got a higher grip potential, and therefore = more speed in the corner.

OR, if somewhat of a "drag" setup = more forward traction = you can carry more speed into a corner and not slide off the track because the tires have enough forward grip to keep you pushing into the inside.

Seems like both ways are plausible, but I don't know which one is more effective. I feel like trying to have the "best of both world" would just lead to something that isn't good for either way.

exactly. discussion about the unsure. lol.

[slowboy]

Originally Posted by Flybert

Drift Bible is archaic.

^^^ true indeed

[ziptie]

i thought i might chime in here because im bored at work and lurking.

My handbrake doesnt work so i couldnt use it to learn to drift. So if there are any beginners out there in the same boat i thought i might help.

I learnt to drift by approaching a corner in the centre of the road in first and swinging out wide and then into the corner, pumping the throttle and then slamming second (less stress on gearbox then comp lock) then jumping on the throttle again to control it.

I just went from doing that, to approaching the corner in 4th and dropping into 3rd or 3rd to 2nd pending the type of corner and just flicking in to initiate while kicking the clutch down a gear and then throttle control.

I found then by increasing my speed that after the corner the car carries itself (with the help of a little steering and throttle) into the next corner just by weight transition. Then to increase angle i just increase the steering input instead of just sort of stopping the steering where it self corrects.
It seems to be working for me, and because i dont use the handbrake i have a bit of speed and because of the speed i can use 18x10s easily with stock power. I hate seeing drift cars with stock wheels on the back, just a pet hate.

It doesnt really matter how you drift as long as you enjoy it, i wouldnt get to pent up on suspension setting and stuff if it works for you it works for you, i would guess set ups change pending the drivers style too.

/boring unhelpful input

[chiboy002]

Originally Posted by slowboy

^^^ true indeed

so was that post.

[Perfect Balance]

Originally Posted by ziptie

It doesnt really matter how you drift as long as you enjoy it, i wouldnt get to pent up on suspension setting and stuff if it works for you it works for you, i would guess set ups change pending the drivers style too.

Like I said earlier, it's not that I care much for my personal car, I just would like to know how it's done "properly".

Everyone always mentioned driving style, but theoretically, there is a "perfect" setup which would give you the most grip, in the same way there is a theoretical perfect grip setup, that would net you the highest cornering speed (mechanical grip), provided the driver was capable of adjusting his driving to utilize the grip that all 4 tires had to offer. Too many times people mention the "driving style" when you have to realize that a car is a machine, and you should set it up to function to the best of it's capabilities mechanically, and it's the driver's job to learn how use it well in that form, not to mention the driver is the most easily "adjusted" part of a car (provided they're a driver that learns well). To an extent though. I remember a case where an F1 team tested a car without a suspension, to which the driver reported that the car would be faster than the F1 car of that time, as long as someone was capable of driving it effectively, but they couldn't do to how much vibration it caused. So obviously if setting a car up to corner/drift as fast as possible results in it being too difficult to drive, then you've overdone it.


Basically, I'm interested in what exactly needs to happen with a car's suspension to net the highest grip/speed in a drift.

[Tearlessj]

I've always ran 0.5 to 1 neg camber in the back. Even wear and good grip.


Had some friends from the J-land recommend it so.....

[fckillerbee]

Originally Posted by Perfect Balance

Like I said earlier, it's not that I care much for my personal car, I just would like to know how it's done "properly".

Everyone always mentioned driving style, but theoretically, there is a "perfect" setup which would give you the most grip, in the same way there is a theoretical perfect grip setup, that would net you the highest cornering speed (mechanical grip), provided the driver was capable of adjusting his driving to utilize the grip that all 4 tires had to offer. Too many times people mention the "driving style" when you have to realize that a car is a machine, and you should set it up to function to the best of it's capabilities mechanically, and it's the driver's job to learn how use it well in that form, not to mention the driver is the most easily "adjusted" part of a car (provided they're a driver that learns well). To an extent though. I remember a case where an F1 team tested a car without a suspension, to which the driver reported that the car would be faster than the F1 car of that time, as long as someone was capable of driving it effectively, but they couldn't do to how much vibration it caused. So obviously if setting a car up to corner/drift as fast as possible results in it being too difficult to drive, then you've overdone it.


Basically, I'm interested in what exactly needs to happen with a car's suspension to net the highest grip/speed in a drift.

what you are asking for is an impossible amount. The "perfection" that you are asking for. Is based on the driver. Because when you sit in the front seat, your weight, is different than mine. Which would mean your corner balance wouldn't be the same. The amount of grip wouldn't be the same. heat in the tire is now changed...all of these factors are now different just because you changed the weight on a specific part of the vehicle. Now assuming this is a perfectly balanced vehicle with you in the car....that's different. Then you can tune it to your liking.

But at the same time. there is a reason why all these "time attack" drivers have things set up for a specific track. A top speed might be different at two different tracks. The gravel might be different.

What you are looking for is almost impossible. The most perfect I could imagine...would be a nascar car. Those cars are to the extreme of their regulations.

The rules give them limits...if not...aero would be changed, weight would be moved around. tires would get bigger...power would increase.

what you are asking...has to have a basic guideline.

example. a stock sr. stock suspension. stock everything.

Only thing you can change is tire pressure. but tire pressure isn't going to be a perfect grip at 30mph and 90mph turns. So those turns have to be calculated.

And that's in a perfect world. Not to mention style of driving.

[iamtheyi]

I also thought that the alignment angles had a lot to do with the differing driving styles. I.E. different drivers use different driving lines on the same track. No?

[fckillerbee]

Originally Posted by iamtheyi

I also thought that the alignment angles had a lot to do with the differing driving styles. I.E. different drivers use different driving lines on the same track. No?

You have the right idea.

a more aggressive driver may put more stress on the vehicle. example...turn in might be a little harsh...so a working setting would be to stiffen up the chassis to allow a smoother weight transfer.

But in a perfect world. Grip=Friction. If you can maximize friction whether it be accel, decel, or cornering....a perfect line would be 100% used. Not to mention that you have to actually be on the correct line to get the best time.

So an aggressive driver in theory would have a shittier lap time than say a smooth braking, smooth accelerating and turning driver.

Michael Schumacher once said that if he gave the F1 car an extra 1 horsepower...the car would slide out.

I don't care who you are...if you can feel that one horsepower...you will drive better than anyone regardless of how perfect the opponents car is set up. the car can only take you so far. The driver is the one that controls the actual outcome. And the driver has to be one with the car. As perfect as a robot could set up the perfect grip levels....it's the driver that will be able to drive the car to it's actual limits.

[Perfect Balance]

Originally Posted by fckillerbee

I don't care who you are...if you can feel that one horsepower...you will drive better than anyone regardless of how perfect the opponents car is set up. the car can only take you so far. The driver is the one that controls the actual outcome. And the driver has to be one with the car. As perfect as a robot could set up the perfect grip levels....it's the driver that will be able to drive the car to it's actual limits.

This is kind of what I meant. It's still up to the driver to get the most out of the car. A lot of times I see people trying to tune a driver error out of a car, because it doesn't suit the "style" of the driver, when it should be the driver changing for the car.

I realize that heat, weight, fuel, ect make a difference in how the car drives, hence the reason I put emphasis on maximizing mechanical grip, which would simply be setting up the suspension to maximize the grip in corners based on the suspension geometry of the car, depending on the grip potential of the tires used. Corner balancing, caster, toe, camber, body roll, weight, ect all come into play.

Now obviously that is asking a lot, and most times conditions aren't perfect, or they change, hence the reason for different set-ups for different tracks, because the car, as a machine, needs to be adjusted to work well in different conditions. The driver's job is to make the most of it. That's what I'm trying to put emphasis on, that the cars should be tuned to be faster, not to suit the driver's "style", but only to the extent that the driver is still capable of driving the car.

I guess in drifting, where you aren't really racing, but rather trying to meet a few criteria, (angle, smoke, proximity, line) there's a lot of room for the driver's "style", but in instances like Time Attack, where you are simply trying to be faster, the objective is to tune the car to be as fast as possible, and the driver's objective is to make the most of it, and screw his driving style, because if it's not making the most of what the car has to offer, then it's costing him time.

Same goes for actual racing, a lot of drivers have what you could call a driving style as to how they go about passing people, or how many risky maneuvers they make, but given a situation during they race where they aren't near anyone or having to adjust their driving for whatever other reason, the main objective is still to lap as quickly as possible.

This is kind of getting off topic though, since this is going way past simply drifting.

Still waiting for someone to chime in on what exactly positive camber does for drifting.

[fckillerbee]

Originally Posted by Perfect Balance

Still waiting for someone to chime in on what exactly positive camber does for drifting.

well....forseburg has it set up that way because of the suspension geometry. when the car compresses, it cambers in...toes out.

if you are drifting any bank, the outter wheel will compress giving camber. Not to mention the squat while on throttle. Maximizing the contact patch in that corner.

squat adds negative camber
weight shifting cambers the wheel

It would only make sense that if you wanted 100% contact patch...that you would tune the car to have perfect grip under the maximum circumstances. Add positive camber if under full throttle it's at a "zero" mark/maximum contact patch.

[Perfect Balance]

Originally Posted by fckillerbee

well....forseburg has it set up that way because of the suspension geometry. when the car compresses, it cambers in...toes out.

if you are drifting any bank, the outter wheel will compress giving camber. Not to mention the squat while on throttle. Maximizing the contact patch in that corner.

squat adds negative camber
weight shifting cambers the wheel

It would only make sense that if you wanted 100% contact patch...that you would tune the car to have perfect grip under the maximum circumstances. Add positive camber if under full throttle it's at a "zero" mark/maximum contact patch.

I see what you're saying, but we've already seen that the car still has positive camber, even while drifting, so it's not straightening them out under compression, at least not enough to be at 0 degrees.

[godspeed01]

Originally Posted by pacotaco345

So! I haven't posted on here since the rainy season and all I did was spin out cuz I didn't know how to control my right foot... All I really did then was clutchkick because I thought handbrake initiations were too hard, (backwards right? haha I know). Recently near the end of the rainy season I started to experiment with the handbrake, start in 3rd, put it in 2nd, keep the clutch in, rip the handbrake to initiate, then let the clutch out and continue my slide. In the rain this worked pretty well, and I was even able to connect a couple turns by my house by drifting the initial right hand turn, swinging the car back left, right, and then back left again to finish the left hand turn. Now when I try and do it in the dry I either straighten back out or spin during transition, I obviously give the car more power to compensate for it being dry out, but it seems like I can't find the balance between understeering and spinning. I was wondering if clutchkicking during a transition would help or anything like that. I'm currently on ebay coils so they're definitely not the best handling wise, and thought that maybe the in the dry they load more weight and thus when I transition there's more momentum.. I'm also running a stock KA w a header, exhuast and the usual 17 year-old kid mods, and I have 215/45/17's front and rear.. Thanks!

quit wasting your time. come out to adamsmotorsportspark.com every thursday and ask some of the guys there. They know their drift and can help you improve.