Advantage of Swift Springs

[mad-ass]

Originally Posted by Speed Junkie

1) "Linear and progressive spring rates are what you are looking for" is completely irrelevant to my original post because:
Calling linear rate springs "progressive" as an attempt to describe spring rate delineation (undesirable) from the advertised spring rate is a misuse of the word in the context of this discussion. Especially when "progressive springs" are actually a thing. It seems like tacotacotaco also misunderstood your comment as he posted examples of actual linear rate springs and progressive springs.
In other words, I know exactly what progressive springs are but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you do as well. Despite your misuse of the word in the context of swift springs being used on coilovers for 240SXs which completely excludes the use of progressive springs.
Big no. Spring rate delineation is not the primary cause of a "bouncy ride". The damper is the primary device that controls spring oscillations. A bouncy car, whether bouncy at lower frequencies (softer springs) or bouncy at higher frequencies (harder springs) is usually underdampened or poorly dampened (linear valving instead of digressive with sufficient rebound dampening).
Even a Swift spring will oscilate excessively if not properly dampened.
Did you read everything that was posted before you?
Again, this doesn't make them into progressive springs which deliberately increase spring rate with stroke. This makes them into bad springs.
Again, did you actually read anything that was said before you commented? more usable travel out of the spring was already stated as a benefit. Not sure who youre trying to prove wrong on this. It's also safe to assume that the majority of the members here have cars lowered to the point that their main issues with travel is with tires hitting the frame of the car, not with the usable spring stroke. That includes myself. My car isn't even "that low" in 240/zilvia standards, AND I've set up my coilovers to hit the bump stops just short of the tire (wheels straight) contacting the frame as you should, but despite that I run out of wheel travel long before spring travel.
It's a practical limitation of my choice to have my car look half decent at a somewhat low height. Maybe if I wanted to raise it to scca autocross spec then I would have to worry about spring travel. But I'm not because I didnt get a 240 as an ideal autocross car.
More catalog fun facts that have already been mentioned. I came here for technical information/conversation (that was my first mistake lol) and not sideline bleacher salesmen.
For the record, I have gen. 6 FA 500 coilovers. 8kg F and 6kg R. And again, you didn't tell me anything I didn't already know nor have you provided any actual personal driving experience.
I had Ohlins PCVs in my old Miata and have driven a wide variety of cars and suspension combinations including ADAC spec E90 on race valved Ohlins DFVs, a Swift on off the shelf DFVs, and plenty of Japanese platforms on Japanese coilovers. So I'm hardly limited in what I've actually driven. So for someone to try to catalog bullet point convince me of why I need springs on my half decent coilovers (in the 240 world) will at least make me raise an eye brow.
Lol I'm good. Thanks though.

I didn't know your understanding level of suspension, you were able to hash through my attempt to explain it like you knew nothing. Now that I know how much you understand and how much experience you actually have, I don't understand why you even started this thread. If you already knew all the benefits of good name brand springs, why do you even want to know what other people think about the benefits will be? Aside from personal opinions, the fact is that Swift/Eibach springs will give you the most true specs out of the springs so you aren't chasing other suspension tuning issues when you are dialing the car in. Wouldn't it be painful if you are trying to dial out over steer but your springs are not spec'ed to what they say they are? If I told you Swift/Eibach springs are pieces of shit product and waste of money, you should have a rebuttal because you know they are supposed to be better with facts; just as if I were you tell you they are 1000% better than generic springs because it feels better on my spines, it's nothing more than my personal opinion and NOT a FACT and should be questioned.

tacotacotaco didn't misunderstand my first post, he just posted a explanation about what I posted first time to clarify the definitions of linear and progressive. The reason why I kept on calling generic springs progressive is because that is what they act like, I suppose I could have just called them bad springs like you did, but that doesn't explain why they are bad if I just simply called them bad springs. "Bad springs" we are all talking about are off spec linear springs and at that point they are no longer linear springs, if you advertise something to be linear and it acts like it's progressive, which one is it? he? she? they? them? If a compression type spring is not linear, it must be progressive.(strictly for vehicle use) This makes it full circle to my first post, bad spring is bad because they advertise to be linear but they are progressive or off spec.

You wanted technical information about springs, there are literally only two different types of springs for what we are talking about, how much more technical do you want to get into? I can tell you 8kg front and 6kg rear spring setup you have is too stiff, and I hate that industry standard springs specs for S-chassis is 8kg/6kg, that is literally to impress first time coilover purchaser that think stiff suspension is good suspension. (oops, personal opinion and not facts)

Catalog fun facts? They are FACTS and that's what matters when you want to talk technical information. And nice neg rep you gave me, just because we are having a debate over a topic we needed to establish a common ground on, doesn't mean you have to belittle everything I said. I am sure if we were actually talking in person this would have been a nice 10 min conversation tops and would have been cool topic to talk about. Who knows.

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"Both are linear rate springs. So unless the "conventional" spring was significantly flawed in such a way that its spring rate would vary throughout its compression (which seems like a serious manufacturing flaw) so much that the driver would feel it as some "negative" "less-than-ideal" sensation, I'd be skeptical."

^^YES! Exactly what I have been trying to say this whole time, you already had the answer. Not all generic springs are this way, and high chances of hit & misses; and that is exactly why Swift or Eibach springs will be beneficial over generic. True to spec and consistency is what is beneficial.

Average coilover owners will not know the difference to feel said sensation, because chances of them experiencing true linear spring is slim to none. How many people do you personally know that owns a S-chassis that has changed out their springs to Swift/Eibach because they wanted to see how their cars will drift differently?

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"So for someone to try to catalog bullet point convince me of why I need springs on my half decent coilovers (in the 240 world) will at least make me raise an eye brow. Lol I'm good. Thanks though."

You literally asked for inputs and what the benefits will be. Would it have been better if I said you'll get all the girls to lay with you with the sight of you in your car? We are not playing Capt. Obvious and General Information here, Major Asshole doesn't even care to comment anyways.

[Speed Junkie]

Originally Posted by mad-ass

*I didn't know your understanding level of suspension, so I assumed you didn't know anything.*

I'll summarize. I was looking to get someone's actual technically-educated driving experience which seems to be the most lacking factor here. From the beginning I made it clear that I was already aware of the main points that would affect the performance of the spring (slider2828 posted a great link). But everyone kept NPC defaulting to "I read somewhere they're amazing!" Lol, I know they're better, but are they really so much better considering the context of the situation (derp suspension geometry 240 with decent coilovers to begin with) much like Def pointed out in the link that slider2828 posted.

Honestly, I probably will eventually get the springs and I'll find out for myself if whatever improvement I feel will be worth $300+. Just not before I get far more important things like knuckles that will make the job of my current springs a lot easier. At least in the front. Speaking of which:

Originally Posted by mad-ass

I can tell you 8kg front and 6kg rear spring setup you have is too stiff

Really? I actually didn't think so. Now of course, being that my car (and any 240 lowered any more than an inch) has such a large roll couple, it rolls way too much even with basic 215 Achilles ATSs. Once I get knuckles and raise the roll center I'll see how much it helps reduce roll on the same tires. From there I'll decide whether or not 8/6 will be sufficient. I want to do occasional track days (not the primary purpose of this car) so the car will have some decent tires on it so naturally it will roll more. I'll see.

I had 10/8 eibach springs on my old Miata and didn't think it was too stiff. And because of the dampening the ride was far better than the 240 now with 8/6 springs (less oscillation both at low speed and high speed travel). But to be fair, miatas have a lower wheel rate than 240s (at least at the front).

Originally Posted by TheRealSy90

*I can't read*

Sucks for you.

Originally Posted by S14DB

Come on guys, you're supposed to justify my decision to not buy swift springs...

Sounds like a logically sound way to go about making these sorts of decisions.

[mad-ass]

Originally Posted by Speed Junkie

I'll summarize. I was looking to get someone's actual technically-educated driving experience which seems to be the most lacking factor here. From the beginning I made it clear that I was already aware of the main points that would affect the performance of the spring (slider2828 posted a great link). But everyone kept NPC defaulting to "I read somewhere they're amazing!" Lol, I know they're better, but are they really so much better considering the context of the situation (derp suspension geometry 240 with decent coilovers to begin with) much like Def pointed out in the link that slider2828 posted.

Honestly, I probably will eventually get the springs and I'll find out for myself if whatever improvement I feel will be worth $300+. Just not before I get far more important things like knuckles that will make the job of my current springs a lot easier. At least in the front. Speaking of which:
Really? I actually didn't think so. Now of course, being that my car (and any 240 lowered any more than an inch) has such a large roll couple, it rolls way too much even with basic 215 Achilles ATSs. Once I get knuckles and raise the roll center I'll see how much it helps reduce roll on the same tires. From there I'll decide whether or not 8/6 will be sufficient. I want to do occasional track days (not the primary purpose of this car) so the car will have some decent tires on it so naturally it will roll more. I'll see.

I had 10/8 eibach springs on my old Miata and didn't think it was too stiff. And because of the dampening the ride was far better than the 240 now with 8/6 springs (less oscillation both at low speed and high speed travel). But to be fair, miatas have a lower wheel rate than 240s (at least at the front).

Cool, now we both understand each other let's converse on topic.

I keep on harping on the fact that generic springs can wildly very on their specs, and Fortune suspension company may have actually done a good job picking out their generic springs to sell to the masses that doesn't want to spend extra money on higher standard springs, and who knows, you might have decent springs in your current coilovers and you may not see big improvement with Swift/Eibach upgrade. Now this is where it gets a bit tricky on recommending you personally to buy Swift/Eibach, because you already own the coilovers and you may not see big difference if the springs you already have are actually decent and spec'd correctly.

You can adjust body roll(specifically inertia of body roll)with stiffer springs AND sway bars + lower center of gravity. So I hope that is not the only reason why you want to upgrade springs before you do sway bars(Do you have adjustable sway bars?).

You know better not to compare McPherson to double wish bone, they react completely different you know you it. But since it's brought up let's talk about that and why you didn't think 10kg/8kg was too stiff(mainly because it was on a double wishbone car, and to clear it up for someone stumbling on this thread years from now that doesn't know what wheel rate is). Double wishbone will accomplish same amount of wheel travel with less compression of strut/springs than McPherson will. Let's say 6 inches of wheel travel is requested, McPherson will need 4~5 inches of compression while double-wishbone will require 3 inches or less to do the same job.(The same reason why we find using a 24" breaker bar easier to turn a tight bolt compared to normal 8" ratchet.) Keeping that in mind let's go back to how off-spec generic springs can be and every millimeter of compression can change the spring rate on them, so even with a stiffer springs double wish-bone car will translate that very differently than of McPherson type. If higher-standards of springs are required to get any variable out of the way, then of course you should be buying Swift/Eibach.

Lame comparison but let's say you know your car will make extra 50whp with E85 tune, and no other changes to the engine, so you fill up your car with E85 that's close to your dyno tuner 50 miles away, you get your car tuned and BAM you are making 50whp extra with E85. You run out of E85 and fill up near your house and now it's only making extra 10whp. What changed? the E85 was not consistent. Just because it's sold saying it's one thing that doesn't mean it's what it is, one of biggest reason why people whom are serious about racing use 1 brand of race fuel, so that it is consistent(insert Swift/Eibach here) and if they are having engine issues they can over look at fuel.

If your end goal of this thread is to lessen your body roll, I would highly suggest you get into adjustable sway bars first before you even mess with anything on coilovers. Yes stiffer springs does help with body roll, but that also comes with harsh ride going over bumps and uneven surfaces. and you even mentioned your primary focus of this car is not track racing, yet if your heart still desire to try out the Swift/Eibach springs, I would recommend that you buy them USED if at all possible.

I'll quote my self, "We still need to talk about actual spring rates and how they should be calculated to be used on a car based on ride height, weight and desired suspension travel." Yet making another full circle of the spring topic and why I think it's important to talk about spring rates to better tune the car for what you want to improve. But how a car should handle is up to the driver and what the purpose of it is. Since we are working with S-chassis here it'll be easy to tell what one may do with such car.

But what do I know, I just roll with Tein S-Tech lowering springs with biggest adjustable sway bars available on my S14.

[Speed Junkie]

Originally Posted by mad-ass

You can adjust body roll(specifically inertia of body roll)with stiffer springs AND sway bars + lower center of gravity. So I hope that is not the only reason why you want to upgrade springs before you do sway bars(Do you have adjustable sway bars?).

I have stock S13 sway bars up front and aftermarket rear bar (whiteline I think. It has been a while). I was going to use an s14 front bar but I think I read x months ago that the bolt pattern wasn't the same or something. Either way my issue with roll is entirely caused by the roll center being so far from the CoG (large roll couple/moment).

Originally Posted by mad-ass

You know better not to compare McPherson to double wish bone

I know. That's why I mentioned exactly that on my previous post. And why I mentioned wheel rates. And by the way the wheel rate is a question of leverage, not dampening.

Originally Posted by mad-ass

If your end goal of this thread is to lessen your body roll...

My end goal was to figure out whether swift springs were worth $300+ of improvement. the question of roll was completely secondary. In fact, my plan was to keep the same 8/6 spring rate depending on how much the car rolled with knuckles.

Originally Posted by mad-ass

I would highly suggest you get into adjustable sway bars first before you even mess with anything on coilovers.

Like I said, I have aftermarket rears which drastically change the handling balance towards less understeer. the car is actually fairly mild and understeer slightly during steady state limit. So not sure if I want to get a larger front bar. The oem bars are pretty large anyways. So again, its a roll center thing before it is anything else.

Originally Posted by mad-ass

Yes stiffer springs does help with body roll, but that also comes with harsh ride going over bumps and uneven surfaces. and you even mentioned your primary focus of this car is not track racing, yet if your heart still desire to try out the Swift/Eibach springs, I would recommend that you buy them USED if at all possible.

Just need to fix the roll center, then we will see where we stand.

Originally Posted by mad-ass

I'll quote my self, "We still need to talk about actual spring rates and how they should be calculated to be used on a car based on ride height, weight and desired suspension travel." Yet making another full circle of the spring topic and why I think it's important to talk about spring rates to better tune the car for what you want to improve. But how a car should handle is up to the driver and what the purpose of it is. Since we are working with S-chassis here it'll be easy to tell what one may do with such car.
But what do I know, I just roll with Tein S-Tech lowering springs with biggest adjustable sway bars available on my S14.

The Silvias (I have an S13 with S14 SR and mid mount) have a 52/48 weight distribution. AND they have a far greater wheel rate at the front McPhersons than the rear multi link. So that 8 kg spring is already effectively applying more force than an equivalent 8 kg spring in the rear would. Except it's 6 in the rear lol. So that's a pretty rough ideal roll resistance distribution and tends to be pretty common for a variety of cars. the question remains, how much is having such a large roll couple at the front affecting the roll rate distribution.

I would almost guestimate that because of that, the front roll rate is actually lower than the rear 6kg spring. Again, in roll.


So yeah, before all else, the front knuckles need to be replaced.