Bizarre KA no start issue - timing?

[MELLO*SOS]

Synopsis: KA24DE cranks, has fuel, has spark but won't start. Sounds like it's a timing issue, but
5-26-2007: Solved... Sorta, it fires up now but has the original problem.

Originally Posted by me

Driving on the freeway, I lost cylinder #2. Pulled the plug wire off and it wasn't sparking, I figure it must be a bad plug, plug wire, cap or rotor.
I swapped the plug from #3 into #2, and the same exact issue. Still no spark, so I replace the cap, rotor and plug wires. Now I have spark on all four cylinders, but #2 still isn't firing. I test the injector, listen to it and measure it's resistance, determine it's bad. I replaced the injector with a known good injector, hooked everything back up and the motor fired right up. Drove around and went to the test spot, everything worked great. Came home, parked and slept, but when I went to start it the next morning it just cranks and cranks.

[MELLO*SOS]

That was last Sunday, it's still broken and I'm not sure what to test next. It still just cranks and cranks, never fires.

Tried these things the last few days with no luck:
- I replaced all four plugs with brand new plugs.
- I replaced the rotor with another brand new rotor.
- I pulled the codes, had a code 33 (bad o2). I cleared the codes, now I have 55 no matter how much I try to start the engine.
- Removed plugs, wires, cap, turned engine over by hand to TDC #1. Verified against crank pulley marks & cam lobes. Reinstalled rotor, pointing to #1 plug wire.
- Installed a test plug onto a wire off the coil. Has great spark during cranking.
- Tested each wire, all have spark during cranking
- Rotated distributor from all the way adv to retard in smallish increments with a test start between adjustments.
- Plugs still come out soaking wet with fuel after many attempts to start, so I assume injectors are firing normally.

I might make a quick video of it tonight if I can't get it going... Not sure how that would help anyone else diagnose it.

It still seems like a timing issue, since it apparently has good spark & fuel. I have no idea how the timing could have been close enough for it to run good, then magically overnight get so far off that it wont even fire. It feels like the distributor gear is off by a tooth or something.

What other electrical issues could cause something like this? It should start without TPS, O2 and MAF sensors hooked up, I think the only sensor it "needs" for startup is the distributor TDC signal.

Help? I need some more ideas.

[Ninjabread]

I'd say check that connection on your dizzy,Only thing I could think of other wise is your timing. Make SURE it's ok because mine had the same issue when I swapped KA's. DIstributor was off by a tooth and it would not start.

[MURPHY]

Originally Posted by Matt89

I'd say check that connection on your dizzy,Only thing I could think of other wise is your timing. Make SURE it's ok because mine had the same issue when I swapped KA's. DIstributor was off by a tooth and it would not start.

did you have spark?

mines all fucked up too haha

[Ninjabread]

I most definitly did. Enough to get it started anyway, It had a missfire / hesitation issue that had to do with the spark plug wires' connection with the plug. Fixed now, but this thread isn't about me anyway.

[MURPHY]

word. it might be your dizzy then. any codes now? let us know man


i wish i could figure my shit out. probably gonna replace harness since already replaced dizzy.

[mandoz85]

Check out your ECU, swap it out with a working one.

[MELLO*SOS]

Hi Mando thanks for the reply. I'm going to see if I can pickup a used ECU, Distributor and Coil for testing this weekend...

Anyone have any tips for resetting the timing? I don't know what else to try...

My process is to pull the spark plugs, rotate #1 to tdc using a screwdriver and watching the crank pulley marks. Once it's up, verify the exh cam lobe is pointing to the driver's wheel. Now the distributor rotor should be pointing toward the front bumper, parallel to the ground. Reinstall plugs, wires, cap and test start... No luck.. I've done this about 5 times now.

[MELLO*SOS]

Originally Posted by Matt89

I'd say check that connection on your dizzy,Only thing I could think of other wise is your timing. Make SURE it's ok because mine had the same issue when I swapped KA's. DIstributor was off by a tooth and it would not start.

Thanks Matt. When I check the connector on the distributor it's OK. If I unplug it, I get no spark at all... So it's sending signal the ECU.

How did you troubleshoot your one tooth off problem? I really don't think thats the problem here since I can't see the distributor gear jumping a tooth (hasnt been removed in a year)... In the middle of the night with the motor off...

[noturS14]

My 97 is the same way. I replaced the plugs, wires, cap, rotor, fuel pump, and new fuel filter and it still just cranks and cranks only thing left to do is try a good ECU. So if you figure it out please post the cure , I'm sure it will be worth trying on mine anything will at this point! thanx

[MELLO*SOS]

Damn glad to hear I'm not the only one... If you find something please post to the thread.

Are you getting spark?

[noturS14]

Getting spark for sure, but its almost like it's flooding , the fuel pump seems like it primes forever and it does everytime you cycle the key. I would think that one prime would be enough but it does it every single time. I'm clueless as to what's going on with it.

[MELLO*SOS]

What caused this problem... Did it die while driving or were you putting it back together from something else? Have you tried pulling the codes?

[MELLO*SOS]

Got it fired up! Some friends came by on their way to oval last night. The karma must have been right, had my buddy crank it while I adjusted the distributor & got it started. Cyl #2 is still dead for some reason

[Ninjabread]

Weird, so it WAS a timing issue?

[blazn240sx]

i have a suggestion it might be flooded in the cylinder take out the spark plug and air it out and do the same in the cylinder take a air compressor to it if possible good luck

[the terrible one]

ahhh i had this problem too. i had spark and fuel. found out my timing was ONE FUCKING tooth off. end result...no compression in any cylinder..bet valves..and no car to use for a while..so what am i gonna do? probably just swap out it out for a known good KA.

[MELLO*SOS]

Originally Posted by Matt89

Weird, so it WAS a timing issue?

Yeah I guess it was the initial problem causing it not to start... I had my friend crank the car semicontinuously while I adjusted the distributor very slowly. As I adjusted it we heard it almost stumble and fire up a few times so I knew it was on the right path... Kept slowly adjusting during cranking until it fired. I hastily tried this earlier, must have missed the sweet spot. I haven't had anyone help me work on the car since the day it happened, so I guess the moral is bring your friends over! Maybe the distributor wasn't tightened securely after the injector swap, and it spun during the test drive.

Well once it got going, the idle was really rough, obviously missing on one of the cyls again. I pulled each plug wire individually to determine who it was -- of course it was #2... The same one that caused all these problems to start with. Almost no change to idle speed when #2 plug wire is removed. When the #2 injector connector is removed the idle stablizes a little and it actually improves. I think #2 injector is dumping too much fuel.

Q: Would the #2 injector pintle cap being missing cause this? The pintle cap was very cracked up when I got the injector (it's used..), I removed what little was left. When I removed my 185k mile fuel rail I noticed my #1 injector pintle cap was also destroyed but the other 2 appeared normal. I believe the pintle cap is there to keep a good atomization against the intake charge? Maybe that injector is dirty and is not atomizing perfectly in the first place. #1 pintle cap is gone too, but it performs great like the rest of the cylinders do. I am going to leakdown test cyl #2, try running some injector cleaner. Maybe send the injectors to deatschwerks for cleaning...

GL to everyone else! Lesson is keep checking things over and over, and a new set of eyes never hurts. Try adjusting your distributor slowly, from one end of the spectrum to the other while someone cranks the engine. It should start to stumble towards one end if not it could be off a tooth, or a fuel/spark delivery issue.

[MELLO*SOS]

Yeah got it 100% fixed. #2 injector wasnt seated properly in the rail. The lower o-ring had slipped off, so that injector was dumping fuel. Replaced with another rail and injectors, works great.

Symptoms for the leaking injector were:
rough idle
very hard start-up
seemed to idle best with inj #2 unhooked from harness, but #2 plug wire installed
idle worsened with #2 inj unhooked AND #2 plugwire unhooked. Small pops during idle/backfire on revs
Unhooking #2 spark plug wire made no difference to the idle if #2 inj was plugged in.

Thanks for the help guys. thread closed.
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