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Tech Talk Technical Discussion About The Nissan 240SX and Nissan Z Cars |
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#1 |
Zilvia Junkie
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SR20det ignition timing issues/engine getting hot
I have a Redtop SR (S13 SR20det)
it was refreshed a year ago (new rod/main bearings, new rings, stock bore,etc.) and before I ran it everyday no issues. around the end of last year I had a metal headgasket installed/tomei cams, but that's it nothing else changed. I bled the coolant (upper/lower rad hoses get warm) so im sure my thermostat didn't just go bad sitting. For some reason the engine has been getting hot (200-210F). once it gets to 210F i just park it, let it cool down and eventually got back home. Im assuming my ignition timing is a little off which might be the cause of it, I double/triple checked the CAS and it's spot on and when I go to put it in "timing mode" (let the car warm up 170F, pull the TPS connector, rev it 3 times around 3k rmps) the timing marks are bouncing quite a bit. I tried the sequence multiple times tonight and could never get it where it needed to be. Is there anything else im missing?? is getting it to set in that timing mode that inconsistent? im not sure what to do at this point but any help would be greatly appreciated!
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#2 |
Leaky Injector
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Are you shutting the car off before pulling the TPS? I found that I had to unplug with the engine off, and then make sure idle was below 1k to get consistent timing readings.
I also had very similar temp issues due to a tiny leak below my intake manifold, by the time the car was getting hot the coolant was below that level so it wasn't immediately obvious. |
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#3 | |
Zilvia Junkie
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Quote:
also all my gaskets are new-ish only got about 8k miles on the engine.
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#4 |
ITS LISA'S FAULT!!!
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what are you running for engine management? if you installed aftermarket cams and didnt retune, thats probably your issue.
also are you running an FMIC? clutch fan or electric fan? what front bumper do you have? what oil are you running? |
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#5 |
Leaky Injector
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I'd double check that all the hoses under the manifold are good, there are a lot in that area
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#6 | |
Zilvia Junkie
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Quote:
entalpy tune and they are tomei poncams i'd imagine they shouldn't need a retune but i could be wrong. yes running a FMIC, electric fan and rotella 5w40 (been using that stuff forever)
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#7 | |
Zilvia Junkie
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I'll double check but i had the engine out and replaced everything when it was out so im doubting that's possible but i'll look again
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#8 |
Zilvia Junkie
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ended up sending the ecu off so should get it back maybe end of next week, i'll update just so this info can be helpful to someone else
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#9 | |
ITS LISA'S FAULT!!!
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Quote:
honestly, ROM tunes are a very outdated way of tuning motors. a full stand alone would be the best route to go. ROM tunes were a 90s and early 00s way of tuning a motor. in modern times, standalones have come leaps and bounds beyond ROM tunes. even running an old school stand alone like a PowerFC is well beyond anything a ROM tune can do. |
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#11 |
ITS LISA'S FAULT!!!
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SRs tend to be fairly cool running motors when tuned properly. with factory ECU, NISMO thermostat, Koyo Radiator, GK Tech clutch fan and OE fan shroud, my SR rarely saw temps above 190-195 in middle of summer during daily driving. NOT during Sept-May is generally in 165-175 range at most. even on stock thermostat, i never saw over 200 deg during middle of summer.
my current setup will SOMETIMES eek passed 200 with PowerFC DJetro and tune (with same hardware mentioned above) during heat waves. if youre pushing into the 210-220 range, then it has to do with the tune on the motor during normal driving. 220-240 didnt become normal operating temp range until late 90s/early 00s in a lot of motors. 210-220s in an SR during normal operation warrants attention... especially if running clutch fan + shroud. |
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#12 | |
Zilvia Junkie
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Quote:
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#13 |
Zilvia Junkie
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is that right? well usually my car stayed around 170-180F max when cruising around, and at events (in the summer) it would creep to 205F max. With it getting hot and i wasn't even getting into boost that caught my attention and made me want to park it.
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#14 | |
Zilvia Junkie
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Quote:
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#15 |
Nissanaholic!
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well guess i need to go back an check how my last sr is running...all of mine ran hot ~200-220 regardless of fan setup...dont know where your numbers came from with the "old" temps, been working on cars since early 90s and doin vehicles as far back as 1930 restorations...all the thermostats, unless low temp/racing were opening at 180...
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#16 |
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![]() 1. Never run any engine long with water cooler than roughly 185*F ... because it accelerates engine wear everywhere not just the cylinder 2. Temperature reading MUST be confirmed: A. use at least two different temp sensors B. try to use two different locations on the engine (ex. 1 in head, 1 in the water outlet to rad) C. Pay attention to where the temp sensor location is with respect to water temp, i.e. water WARMS as it moves from one side of the engine to the other, most engine have TWO different temp sensor locations (e.g. LS engine head location choice) and this will impact the reading! -most engines flow from back to front- so take your reading near the front 3. The ideal temperature range for majority of daily drivers with turbochargers is near 190 to 195*F (195 to 200*F outlet temps). For "old" engines like sr20det a max of roughly 210*F is recommended when using gasoline and especially when climate temp ambient is 80*F ( hot outside like Florida) However! 210 to 225*F is technically "safe" for engine oil and engine coolant temps. It isn't good when using gasoline because the high temp upsets the fuel and that is NOT GOOD when using turbochargers to boost compression. -> Also there is temp rise as the engine accelerates, so if the engine starting at 210*F then it will finish the run at 220 or 230*F is likely. Thus, we should keep our turbo sr20det engines near 190*F perhaps 188*F as much as possible, then allow them to warm to near 210*F as they are heavily loaded / raced around. Note / example * an outlet temp of 195 to 200*F could put the temp inside the engine near ~182*F at some point |
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#17 |
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Now to the issue of timing
The rom-tuned ecu isn't going to impact cooling temps there is very little if any difference in tuning for any sr20det with respect to ignition timing and camshaft changes, for most changes this is true. That is because the engine uses a cruise timing which is similar no matter what the compression ratio of a turbo engine can encompass. In other words, a typical turbo engine is already using a very low static compression ratio (8.5:1 or 9:1 is typical) therefore while cruising the alterations to engine VE due to camshaft and other mods is negligible with respect to gasoline ignition timing tuning. So, there is nothing in your ECU causing your temp related issues unless it was some kind of mistake or bad part involved, or bad wiring I guess (its not tuning related). If anything, as camshaft "size" increases, engine VE increases, which would call for LESS ignition timing at wide open throttle (MORE EGT = less timing) --- Now the timing itself, could be an issue. most timing light have a directional pickup. The critical issue with sr20det timing is the position of the CAS. Take a careful look at where it is positioned between the lockdown bolts. It should be just slightly off-set (the bolt is not quite centered in the slot). Next, check the timing, then FLIP the pickup on the coil pack wires. In other words, flip the clamp around 180* so the wire goes from left to right instead of right to left (or whatever). Then re-check the timing. The timing which yields 15* BTDC while the cas is nearly centered (bolt in the center of the slot adjustment) is the correct timing. When flipped incorrectly it should push the CAS off to one side (FULLY moved to the edge of the slot). |
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#18 | |
Zilvia Junkie
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#19 |
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Yep took me a minute to find but here is the post where I show, read the whole thing maybe
https://zilvia.net/f/showpost.php?p=6373984&postcount=9 picture: ![]() Recap: Once you read the timing one way, flip the pickup around 180* so its facing the other direction and check again. Most pickup (the thing that clamps onto the wire) have a little arrow showing the direction of the spark towards the plug, but don't rely on that; just check the timing both ways and then you need some common sense/knowledge of which way is correct 1. The cas will be nearly center when the pickup is flipped properly (slight offset) 2. The engine will seem to run well, normal even 3. The timing will be steady as long as the TPS is disconnected. It doesn't matter when you disc the TPS, running or not running. 4. Rev the engine and check the spread, it should advance timing to say 25 or 30* or something like that (from 15 original). 5. Always set to 15* btdc timing unless you are advanced tuning expert. |
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#20 | |
Zilvia Junkie
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#21 |
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The engine needs tuning even if you don't install cams;
The cam part isn't what necessitates the tuning part- the engine has a MAF sensor which means it can compensate for additional mass of airflow when the cams are installed easily. It also uses an O2 sensor for cruise/idle to adjust for inconsistencies in the MAF caused by changes to the head/cam/etc... So, on one hand, the cam upgrade should be handled by the maf and O2 sensors. There is no need to "tune" anything because the maf and O2 adjust a/f ratio based on their measured values. On the other hand, the OEM tune is not ideal, or even intended for our climate or gasoline in some cases. The OEM tuning for sr20/2jz tends to use too much ignition timing and a slightly leaner a/f ratio than we desire. Furthermore, the aging of the MAF sensor and inconsistency of the user-end plumbing (the style of intercooling and type of plumbing components) adds variability to how the maf is going to interact, as a perfectly positioned maf sensor is rare. Next, the maf itself is a question as the OEM maf can only supply maybe 300rwhp? Or so. After that you would need a Z32 maf (something larger) which obviously requires a re-tuning as well. And of course, larger injectors to support the increased power. Thus, it isn't the cam install that facilitates the re-tune. It is really these: 1. the necessity of removing the OEM Maf sensor and adding Z32 sensor 2. adjustment for the age and position of the different maf sensor 3. tuning for larger injectors 4. "fixing" the oem timing and fuel maps To put this into perspective, If you bring me an OEM sr20det engine with all factory maf/injectors/ecu/turbo/etc.... I could easily replace the maf, injectors, ecu, and perform a re-tune that would work well with the OEM turbo and engine. Then, you can take the car and drive it for 5 years or whatever, then do a mild cam and turbo upgrade and it would not require any re-tuning because I've already fitted the new maf and injectors to work with the engine at any Mass-airflow-rate (up to approx 500hp). |
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#22 | |
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This is the problem you had the timing at like 30* btdc or something crazy when the cas is set like that. You had the pickup reversed. Easy fix |
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#23 | |
Zilvia Junkie
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my other question is and i've heard doing the timing sequence doesn't always lock for some reason. So what can remedy that? and i have had a cas off a tooth before but it would not run, it revs smooth no hiccups or hesitation/misfires at all and before I sent the ecu off i made sure to re stab the cas to verify it was spot on where it should be. p.s. - i flipped the timing pickup both ways and it didn't change a thing.
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#24 |
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1. I recommend a compression test, take all plugs out, spin the motor with a battery charger to help, write it down
2. CAS off to the side is a warning flag. I've never seen an engine do that or need that. Sounds like you need to try another timing light or a different procedure (try using a plug wire instead of the coilpack wires) or maybe the cam isn't installed correctly? What size cam and does it run rough? 3. Timing should stop jumping around once you unplug the TPS. If it does not, could be a poor wiring of the tps sensor causing noise in the tps signal. Or an issue with idle speed, does the idle change because of an air leak maybe? 4. Pressure test the plumbing after the compression test 5. Are you using the correct mark? On the damper iirc it goes -5 0 5 10 15 20 Summary Compression and pressure test, check tps wiring, use a different timing light The ultimate test is, does the car drive normal, have good compression and make the correct power. If you think its good to go it will drive normal and then take it to a dynojet and put down the right amount of juice and /done |
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#25 | |
Zilvia Junkie
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TPS wiring is fine (just installed a brand new wiring specialties harness a month ago so wires are new). and on the timing light i borrowed a friends light (snap on light with a dial) but I went ahead and bought one from autozone so that's 2 lights already. on the cams it's tomei poncams (the drop in ones 258 Int/exh.) the dials are on the marks no issues there. and on the mark yes im using the right one (the second one from right to left 15*deg mark). I will say before i drove the car every day no issues and the CAS was sitting as it sits now almost maxed to one side, however i've always heard people say it should be centered or close to so im wondering if some cas' sit a little different (i'd imagine it shouldn't but maybe it does??)
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#27 |
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factory position If it moved from here, 1. cam maybe not installed properly (tooth off?) 2. wrong timing 3. ECU maybe programmed differently than OEM for timing base mark 4. ?? Engine/head decked too far? Would that do it |
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#28 | |
Zilvia Junkie
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1. Im going to pull the valve cover and check again after work and triple check. 2. wrong timing as in mechanical timing ?? 3. it's entalpy tuned so highly doubt that is incorect he has it set at 15deg. 4. nah it wasn't decked crazy or anything like that.
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#29 |
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Set the lobes facing outwards. Count the 20 links between the dots. The cam lobes both face out and about 2 or 3 degrees, very little bit upwards. So they wont be perfectly flat or 180* across, each lobe facing out will also face a tiny bit upwards.
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#30 | |
Zilvia Junkie
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I finally got a consult port/adaptor in the mail so going to try it out to see, I wonder if my idle may be too high to set the timing properly (tach doesn't work) it doesn't seem to idle too high but it could be a little off since i have no way to read it. Also another thing I was thinking about is obviously all the CAS from SR's are interchangable, I wonder if lets say for example a S14 or S15 CAS on a S13 SR changes it's position maybe? just a thought but never heard anyone talk about that before.
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