cheapest way to tune ka-t that reliable

[mikespeed95]

doing a cheap bastard turbo kit. how well does a safc work? what other cheap alternatives are there that are

1) reliable for constant ragging on at drift events
2) cheap

please leave the "learn to search n00b" comments outta this. i search on here a lot, and normally dont come up with anythign. and if everyone searches and never posts anythign then theres no good reading material for those you bored posting here.



also who has REAL 1st hand experience with a safc? how did it work? do i need a harness?

:ghey:

[North240]

search NOOB.............................................. ........ ok seriously though
I have a KAT, if you want my full setup check www.cardomain.com/id/North240 , I run a SAFC-2 with 370's and a stock MAF. It was tuned with the help of a friend of mine (who also welded the kit) with a wideband o2. I am only running 6psi out of a t3/04 and no issues so far. The KA can take more boost but beware of your stock timing maps, without an ecu re-tune or a msd btm you could blow a motor with excessive boost. Hope this helps.

[mikespeed95]

i dont plan on runnin crazy boost, just gonna run a small t3 or a t2small, with sr 370's. not lookign to make record setting gains, just tryign to do it cheap.

can you tune the safc without a dyno?

[pr240sx]

I am doing the exact setup right now
a full T3 with 370cc and a SAFC intercooled using a SR sidemount at probably no more than 7 psi with walbro or z32 fuel pump.
But on a S13.
I am right now asking around if I need a z32 MAF or can use the s13 one or hack and install an s14 maf
Also I am installing it on steps, first will be the SAFC on my stock engine (stock MAf and inj.) then if needed the bigger MAF or if not needed the injectors and finally the turbo setup with all the piping etc

[orion::S14]

Originally Posted by pr240sx

...at probably no more than 7 psi

But on a S13.

I am right now asking around if I need a z32 MAF or can use the s13 one or hack and install an s14 maf...

For 7psi from a T3, your stock MAF should be OK. It'll probably be *almost* maxed out, but that's fine.

(And you can't use an S14 MAF on an S13 (hacked or not), even with an SAFC...FYI)

- Brian

[mrmephistopheles]

1. Fast
2. Reliable
3. Cheap

Pick two.

[BSeay]

Originally Posted by mrmephistopheles

1. Fast
2. Reliable
3. Cheap

Pick two.

my thoughts exactly...

[thx247]

Originally Posted by mrmephistopheles

1. Fast
2. Reliable
3. Cheap

Pick two.

message length? wtf...

[mellojoe]

If you stay in the 5 to 7psi range, you SHOULD be able to get away with the stock injectors and just an FMU. Its a very cheap way to get it done, but it works. I've seen as high as 10psi on a GT32 with stock injectors and an FMU. It netted 240whp. The stock MAF has been proven to be good right up through about 270 to 280whp.

If you want the extra bit of reliablity, then you can go with the 370cc injectors, new fuel pump, and S-AFC. Then you should be able to run a full 10psi and be real happy.

JWT makes an ECU reflash for right around $600 to run 370cc injectors, so you could go that route without the S-AFC. I'd still get the upgraded fuel pump if you go with bigger injectors.

And, finally, the most expensive, but the most reliable solution would be to go with the JWT ECU reflash, the 370cc injectors, the new fuel pump, AND the S-AFC. This would take care of your timing and you could make minor tweaks to compensate for all the different components making up your setup.

Anyway, good luck! Can't wait to see another KA-T on the road.

[orion::S14]

Originally Posted by mellojoe

1) The stock MAF has been proven to be good right up through about 270 to 280whp.

2) If you want the extra bit of reliablity, then you can go with the 370cc injectors, new fuel pump, and S-AFC. Then you should be able to run a full 10psi and be real happy...

Melloejoe - Good info, but I have to take exception with a couple points...

1) Stock MAF will not do much more than ~250rwhp...mine was hacked to be able to flow ~20% more than stock, and still hit 5.11 volts at less than 260rwhp.

Also, I have a buddy with a S14 KA-T (Z31 T3 @ 9psi, probably ~240rwhp) and his stock MAF maxes out at 5500rpm in 3rd gear and up.

2) And be careful quoting boost numbers with respect to injector size...my 370s, overrun with an extra 10psi with fuel pressure (which is ~412cc), still were at 100% duty cycle at ~9psi form a T3/T04E.

I think 10psi is too much from almost any turbo for 370cc injectors...

- Brian

[Herd240]

If JWT offered up a 4-bar fuel program for KA ECUs....then you could get away with 290-ish whp at the absolute limit.

I do now know if JWT offers this program for KAs. They do offer it for FF SR20 turbo programs, and I have it with 370 injectors on my '93 SE-R. It made 282whp at 11psi of boost, and the injectors hit 93% on that dyno run. The MAF (stock, bored to 53.5mm) was within .1v of maxxing out, too.

Anybody know if JWT offers the 4-bar fuel and some type of bored MAF combo for KA-powered cars?

[skatanic28]

running 370s, a walbro, safc2, and putting in a btm soon.
all that ran me around $550. i like being able to tune and make changes myself.

you could try skipping the btm and saving 175 bucks by just retarding the base timing, but i wanted good off-boost power and quicker spool.

[mellojoe]

Originally Posted by orion::S14

Melloejoe - Good info, but I have to take exception with a couple points...

1) Stock MAF will not do much more than ~250rwhp...mine was hacked to be able to flow ~20% more than stock, and still hit 5.11 volts at less than 260rwhp.

Also, I have a buddy with a S14 KA-T (Z31 T3 @ 9psi, probably ~240rwhp) and his stock MAF maxes out at 5500rpm in 3rd gear and up.

2) And be careful quoting boost numbers with respect to injector size...my 370s, overrun with an extra 10psi with fuel pressure (which is ~412cc), still were at 100% duty cycle at ~9psi form a T3/T04E.

I think 10psi is too much from almost any turbo for 370cc injectors...

- Brian

I have ridden in a zenki s14 running stock injectors, stock fuel pump, and an FMU. This car had a GT32 turbo and a liquid to air intercooler. It was running 10psi and netted 240whp on a Dynojet.

I'm simply giving you the numbers I have seen. Sure, this was pushing the ragged edge, but the 370cc injectors and better fuel pump and some tuning should be able to run the same boost safer.

If we go by the calculation of 1.5cc per every horsepower:
370cc = 246hp. So, I would agree that anything more than 240whp should use bigger injectors. Heck, 270cc should only net less than 200whp, but I have seen it done. And it ran for 6 months before he took it apart. I think he sold the car, recently.

I apologize if I am wrong about the MAF limit. I have yet to test its limit, personally, so I am going by other KA-T drivers' claimed results.

[North240]

for the cheapest relieble route i would go: 370's they're like $100 on ebay or here, SAFC-2 $250 or so and the stock MAF. I wouldn't push that setup to far but 7psi is a lot more fun than stock!! Why risk it and blow your motor, play it safe and be able to play another day.

and yes you can tune your setup without a dyno using a wideband o2

[NismoSilvia270R]

Originally Posted by North240

for the cheapest relieble route i would go: 370's they're like $100 on ebay or here, SAFC-2 $250 or so and the stock MAF. I wouldn't push that setup to far but 7psi is a lot more fun than stock!! Why risk it and blow your motor, play it safe and be able to play another day.

and yes you can tune your setup without a dyno using a wideband o2

i know it sounds stupid, but 'i know a guy that did this' at 10 psi and it held up great. safc is good investment. saw many threads on hacked mafs. not that hard to do, if it came down to it

[mikespeed95]

ive thoguht of fmu, and i will not do it. fact of the matter is not only is it ghetto, it also costs more than sr injectors.

also not to be rude, thanks for the input, but does anyone here ACTUALLY HAVE INTALLED what im asking?

[pr240sx]

As far as I know, no harness needed, just to splice/cut/intercept some wires from the ECU harness
I am waiting for my SAFC2 (the one with the 4 buttons) to arrive.
Dunno if the differences between to two are going to really matter at the end. I was told that the older one does not use the knock sensor where the new one does
Again, on a very noisy, shakey engine like the KA dont think that the knock sensor probe on the SAFC will make any differences at all.

[North240]

i think i already mentioned it but i am running a SAFC-2, 370's, walboro 195, and stock s14 MAF w/ 6psi on a t3/04e. It was tuned with a wideband o2, i am living proof that it works, although as i look to upgrade a enthalopy reflash is looking like my best option to deal with the stock timing issue. then with larger injectors and a bigger MAF i'll run 10psi. Just my $.o2

[mikespeed95]

anthalopy reflash? how much is that/cheaper than jwt? link?

[North240]

Originally Posted by mikespeed95

anthalopy reflash? how much is that/cheaper than jwt? link?

No link and its enthalopy on freshalloy, but he retunes OBD1 KA's and does it very well, i think he used to work for secret services. As for cheaper i dont think so, its about the same $500 but the tuning is generally not as rich as compared to JWT. If you are looking for a low budget low boost setup then 370's, safc-2, walboro pump and a stock MAF is what you need to go with, it will be fine for what you need it for and you can tune it with a wideband to start with.

[Mikel]

LOTS of factory turbo applications use an "FMU". In fact, I would suggest it for any car with a turbo, but I wouldn't suggest it alone. IMO you at least need to be able to raise fuel pressure 1psi for every 1psi of manifold pressure.

[orion::S14]

Originally Posted by Mikel

LOTS of factory turbo applications use an "FMU". In fact, I would suggest it for any car with a turbo, but I wouldn't suggest it alone. IMO you at least need to be able to raise fuel pressure 1psi for every 1psi of manifold pressure.

Yeah, the S13/S14 come with a factory FPR with a 1:1 ratio...but that's not typically called an "FMU". (And as you said, they are a MUST for turbocharged cars, to keep the pressure differential across the injector tip constant...).

But I know of NO factory turbocharged apps that use a higher rate (2:1, 6:1, 8:1, whatever), which begins the realm of "FMU" or "RRFPR"...

- Brian

[mrmephistopheles]

Originally Posted by North240

No link and its enthalopy on freshalloy,

Enthalpy.
If you're going to correct someone, BE CORRECT!

[RBS14]

Will you people stop making half-assed solutions already?! You have to pay to play. I'm not talking about going out and throwing down $4k for a Fmax kit, but at least get the proper sized injectors for your application. running extra fuel pressure on injectors at 100% duty cycle is asking for it, any way you look at it. DIY stuff is great, but there comes a point where you need to pay for stuff you need. Fuel and igniton are two of those things. skimping on either/both WILL blow your engine, sooner or later. so many kat's are blowing because ka's don't hold boost well, it is user error. Skimping and cutting corners will catch up with you. believe it.

Also, save the "if JWT does it it's fine" or "i've been doing it for a year and it's worked great" comments regarding the afore mentioned subjects. it's unsafe, that's the bottom line.

[Herd240]

Originally Posted by RBS14

Will you people stop making half-assed solutions already?! You have to pay to play. I'm not talking about going out and throwing down $4k for a Fmax kit, but at least get the proper sized injectors for your application. running extra fuel pressure on injectors at 100% duty cycle is asking for it, any way you look at it.

Also, save the "if JWT does it it's fine" or "i've been doing it for a year and it's worked great" comments regarding the afore mentioned subjects. it's unsafe, that's the bottom line.

I see nothing wrong with a tried and proven 4-bar fuel program (JWT). FF SR guys have been running this program with 370cc/min injectors for a few years now, with pretty good results. This is for street-ish cars that only go to the track every now and then.

If your engine will live at full boost all day long, then obviously this isn't for you.

As I stated before: the 370 injectors at 4-bar fuel pressure JWT program (with a 53.5mm MAF) works beautifully on FF SR turbo cars. It has reliably and safely gone to 282whp (me) and 290whp (a SE-R in SoFla).

If JWT offered it for KA ecus, I'd be first in line to get one based on my personal results and experience with it.

Otherwise...just say no to FMUs and the like.

[mikespeed95]

where did i say i was tryign to go fast? this is an auto-x/drift car. as much as id like to be raping ls6 on the highway im not building a car for it.

[RBS14]

my goal is to build an engine that will hold up under any conditions I can subject it to, and any level of beating on it and track days. 100% duty cycle in addition to higher fuel pressure will fail under said conditions sooner rather than later, so it's not for me.

[mikespeed95]

I fail to understand how 370cc injectors can be at 100% duty cycle running 7 pounds on a shitty 14b being run with a safc and 255walboro.

[orion::S14]

Originally Posted by RBS14

100% duty cycle in addition to higher fuel pressure will fail under said conditions sooner rather than later, so it's not for me.

But the JWT setup with the 4bar base fuel pressure isn't at 100% duty cycle until you max the HP of the "larger" injectors.

370s with a base fuel pressure of 58psi are rated at 115% of the original flow rate, so 370s at 58psi are 427cc injectors. So JWT tunes for a 427cc injectors, and it runs like stock.

Only once you reach ~280rwhp will they hit 100% duty cycle...

Originally Posted by nistech

do u have anyother choices besides cobra mafs if u are boosting 1bar and how much are they

Yeah, 300ZX (Z32) MAF can be used...

And JWT tunes are $500-600, depends on where you buy, and what options you need.

- Brian

[RBS14]

Originally Posted by orion::S14

370s with a base fuel pressure of 58psi are rated at 115% of the original flow rate, so 370s at 58psi are 427cc injectors. So JWT tunes for a 427cc injectors, and it runs like stock.

Only once you reach ~280rwhp will they hit 100% duty cycle...

yea, it's fine when you are not running high duty cycles. However when you start running high duty cycles, it gets sketchy. I'd also be willing to bet that running 4 bar pressure reduces the life of the injectors, regardless of what duty cycle.