Welded Diff. VS. LSD Pros and Cons??

[SR20d2fourT]

Hey guys. Right now Im debating (as well as a friend) as to whether or not I should just weld my diff. or get an LSD (2 way). What are some of the pros and cons to the welded diff. Would it last a while? Would it have any problems? How effecient is it? Any and all pros and cons to the Welded diff. VS. LSD...thanks.

[S14DB]

what are you using the car for?

[andrewmp6]

id only weld it if it was a drag or drift only if you want to drive it maybe on the street 2 way welded means its locked it will eat up your rear tires

[TheSquidd]

Welded pro:
-Awesome drifting
-Cheap
-Better than open diff
-Indestructable vs. clutch type

Cons:
-Chirp noise
-Minimally faster tire wear
-Don't go on the touge.
-Tight turns are a little tricky
-Requires a different driving style as you must gas it to oversteer


For drift, Welded > clutch > VLSD > open
For "grip", Clutch > VLSD > welded > open

[Silverbullet]

there are quite a few members on here who daily drive on a welded. The best idea is to probably try driving one. Im looking into the option myself.

[!Zar!]

Wasn't there already a thread on this?
Don't touge on weld is a myth in my oppinion. You just need to change your driving style. First time I took a weld onto the mountain I was unsure and understeered. Second time I stayed on the throttle and with a little trail brake, I was alot faster then open. When you DD, it's not annoying unless you are running cheap tires, then you'll get the chirp. If you have decent tires then all you hear is a scuff. Tirewear is minimal. I didn't notice any for a few months of DDing. But when I drifted... I just say go welded. It's worth it.

[HyperTek]

I hate swapping diffs.. so make the decision.. Welded = broke ass 240 owners lol jk. Id rather rock open diff but thats just me. Ive driven cars wiht welded, it just doesnt feel right. everyone says you "just change your driving style, or adapt to it".. that is a poor excuse imo. You shouldnt have to change your driving to suit your car, but your car to suit your driving..

Ironically tho, id prolly do it if I had a car where lsd wasnt an option (like some oldskool cars etc)

What kind of suspension do you have? Welded diff on stock suspension is scary to drive.

But your personal experience is all that matters, not what people say on the internet. Its cheap so you guys could try it and see if you like it.

[ManoNegra]

I have one lying around. Drove it for a couple of months and got used to it. These were my impressions after a couple of weeks driving:

http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthre...e#Post68025925

Got a J30 now so the welded diff (S14 pumkin) is for sale.
-Juan

[!Zar!]

Originally Posted by HyperTek

everyone says you "just change your driving style, or adapt to it".. that is a poor excuse imo. You shouldnt have to change your driving to suit your car, but your car to suit your driving..

iirc all diffs require some sort of driving change. Let it be open/helical/1.5/2/weld.
Open: Can enter corners fairly hot without fear of swapping ends. Off throttle neutral handeling. On throttle, inside wheel will most likely unload.
Helical: Same as open But you can gas alot sooner and instead of your diff unloading it will send power to the side with most traction and push your car throught the turn.

1.5: Off throttle isn't as dramatic, so iyou can still turn without much if any understeer. On throttle, the diff will lock and push you through the corner.

2way: In a corner off throttle your car will have some understeer being as how it locks up so you'll have to stay on throttle for max speed.

Weld: Same as 2way less hardparking points.

With all that said, all diffs require some sort of driving change.

[TheSquidd]

Must've been the combo of touge / tires I was running but every corner was a slide festival. 195's are all I can fit, but I'm sure with like some Azenis on 8" wide rims you'd have a much better handling package.

Zar you seem to have more experience in this than I do, would you recommend a welded over open for a time attack at a complex course ? I was told I would break loose too much, and would be black flagged.

I miss my welded

[!Zar!]

Weld, the only way it would break loose is if you don't have throttle control. Because with all forms of racing, you need to learn the fine line from enough throttle to push your car into a corner and through the apex, and too much to make your car oversteer. While with an open it would just unload if you try and power through a turn. Weld > open always. I currently have an open in my s14 and during the rain storms we've been having I'm missing my weld. Just the other day I was driving through frisco and my inside tire kept unloading and I hadn't even released the clutch all the way. But hey open in the rain is kind of like traction control? hehe

[TurDz]

Just curious, do any pro drifters run welded diffs? If most don't, what advantages does a 2-way have over welded (in a drifter's POV).

[!Zar!]

Luke Lonberger of shockdrifting has one and sells the weld locd v3!!!!!!!!
400+hp ls1 FD!!!!!!!
Nuf said.
I don't keep track of all the drifters and what's "cool" But in reality you shouldn't care what the d1 guys run, becuase they are sponsored and get most of their product discounted or free. Like I stated before wouldn't you like to be cool and have a tomei or kazz or something and spend hundreds on it. Or a welded that cost $75. IF someone presented me with a nice lsd like the nismo pro gt, or a weld I'd choose the lsd, but I mean who wouldn't? Functionality is basicly the same. But I do suggest searching because there are many threads already about this topic.

[GoldWatchKid]

Basically its up to you. Ive been on a welded diff for almost 8months. Ive been through 2 already....

Make sure you get it tig welded by an awesome welder. My first two were done on the same day by the same guy using a mig welder. He didnt clean the spider gears good and the weldes just broke after 3 weeks of normal driving....

If the welds are good you should have an awesome diff.

I had lots of understeer in the begining... Make sure to get sticky tires up front and learn to transfer your weight before a turn...

I say go welded if your broke like me....

p.s. some people say it doesnt matter what fluid you use in a welded diff. I disagree. I run redline shockproof... Works fine....

[Var]

Before i comment, I'm purposely leaving out stupid little things like tire wear, tires noise, chirping, etc. Those things shouldn't matter to you if you're in the market for a differential like the ones in question. If you want smooth operation you need Viscous or Helical.

And to address Hypertek's comment about not having to change your driving style. 2 years ago i couldn't agree with you more. But now, after driving all kinds of different cars in "performance" style driving, i realized that no car is going to be perfect. And you're not always going to drive the same car all your life. Part of becoming a good driver is to adapt to any situation that you're put in. Also one thing to do is to keep experimenting. I was able to use all types of diffs except the Helical and in all situations. Each one teaches you a different approach to driving because the differential is such a crucial part of the car's handling. If you're a real beast, figure out your weak point(s) and set-up your car up to absolutely suck in those aspects, and try to overcome it using driving technique. Then you can set everything up all nice again and you'll go twice as fast.


-----------------------------------
Welded diffs are a cheap way to get your diffs to lock. It's not the best way to do it, but it's very tempting considering the cost/performance of your other options.

Pros:
Dirt cheap
Won't break if welded correctly
Requires ZERO maintenance
Does not require service/rebuild
Will not wear out or start locking differently overtime like a clutchtype/viscous
Locks your rear wheels
Teaches you a lot about car control if you use it in all conditions. (Touge grip/touge drift/track grip/track drift/daily driving/wet condition driving/etc.)


Cons:
Locks too much causing understeer off throttle. This condition is apparent with a 2 way also but is much more severe with a welded diff. Mostly affects how you initiate your drift / approach the corner.

Once on/off the throttle during a drift, the 100% locking effect isn't really as apparent. It feels pretty close to a 2way but a 2way will always function smoother in on/off throttle transitions and switchbacks.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

As far as characteristics i can describe

Going into a turn with a 2-way off throttle you get understeer. If you're in the turn and you get on the throttle properly, the understeer will promptly turn into sweet rotation, and the car wont go into a drift/understeer unless you're already at the limit of adhesion. So if you're trying to grip you'd naturally have to estimate how much speed you have to gain through a certain turn in order to keep the car rotating and enter the turn that much slower and gradually accelerate through it.

With a welded diff it's the same except you get more understeer/rotation with on/off throttle. So you enter the turn just like above but understeering more heavily, and once you get on the throttle, the transition to rotation is much more violent and abrupt. It's also hard to keep traction on lower speed corners with crappy tires so be careful.


I dont mean this as disrespect, but kiss my ass if you're offended.

Most people out there aren't going to need a clutch diff in their first couple years of drifting. If you're a newbie, or still have lingering problems in your technique that need to be resolved, a 2-way wont make you drift any better than a welded diff.

going off topic a little- The most common problem i see is people committing to a corner. It's almost like they are unsure if they're gonna drift that turn or not, and more than likely will enter the turn too slowly and will won't have enough speed to carry through it. Or they may be too scared to pitch the car sideways. Or maybe they haven't even mastered the skidpad yet and they're trying to drift. You should be able to completely master donuts before trying to drift ie: do as narrow or as wide of a donut/drift as you want at any time, switch directions anytime, slide your car around any diameter of a circle in 1st gear . A welded diff is a good cheap first step towards this. Figure out 1st gear before you try 2nd and 3rd because with 1st gear you're practically eliminating intertia. It's one less thing to mess with you as you learn the basics of counter-steering and throttle-steering.


A little addition since i dont want anyone to feel left out.

If you're gonna drag race..dont ask me. I'm sure the diff will hold up with stock tires but i dunno about 6krpm launches with slicks. ??

If you're not planning to drift, dont get a welded diff just cause it's the new thing to do. That would make you a fool.

[TurDz]

!Zar!, I really don't appreciate the comments on me wanting to be "cool," that was totally besides the point. But since pro drifters do get the top quality products, I just had the question on why they would want clutch type diffs more than welded ones, as in the actual physical/technical reasons why. Has nothing ot do with coolness or "JDM-tyteness."

Var, your arguments make a lot of sense and thoroughly answered my question of why pro drifters would use 2-ways (for smoothness).

slightly off topic, but I have another question for you. I am gradually starting to get into drifting nowadays, and I am signed up for the next Norcal DD. Anyway, I have been to a few track events (T-hill, BW), with almost 100% focus on regular grip driving.

I have an open diff, and I am very accustomed to its characteristics on the track. The thing is, you mention that beginners should learn donuts (& fig 8's) but I really doubt I can do that with an open diff. I don't have any money to spend on any type of clutch differential, but I also do not want to weld my diff because the majority of my driving is still grip.

I'm thinking right now that my priorites are on regular grip track driving, but I still want to learn low speed drifting. Any suggestions on how I should approach this?

Additionally, would higher-grip rear tires on a welded diff increase off-throttle understeer?

thanks for the help.

[i8yourfwd]

Originally Posted by TheSquidd

Must've been the combo of touge / tires I was running but every corner was a slide festival. 195's are all I can fit, but I'm sure with like some Azenis on 8" wide rims you'd have a much better handling package.

Zar you seem to have more experience in this than I do, would you recommend a welded over open for a time attack at a complex course ? I was told I would break loose too much, and would be black flagged.

I miss my welded

Personally, I wouldn't recommend a welded for grip driving. I don't like the feeling of my welded in tighter corners. The understeer at entry is pretty bad, and breaking loose on turn exit is real easy also.

Wow, great post Var.

Would anybody here take an open over a welded for GRIP driving?

[nigel1]

(Caps lock is on on purpose...)

CAN WE JUST STICKY A THREAD ON WELDED DIFFSSSSSSS?????? WE HAVE A NEW DAMN GAY ASS THREAD ABOUT THEM EVERY DAMN TWO DAYS. THE FACTS ARE THERE ABOUT WELDED DIFFS. ALL OF THE QUESTIONS ABOUT THEM HAVE BEEN ANSWERED AND THERE REALLY IS NO MORE QUESTIONS TO ASK/ANSWER.

WELDED DIFFS KICK ASS. PERIOD.

[TurDz]

Originally Posted by i8yourfwd

Would anybody here take an open over a welded for GRIP driving?

I think in my post above, I'm pretty much saying that I would. Maybe it's because of the relative stability and familiarity with it?

[Var]

Originally Posted by TurDz

I'm thinking right now that my priorites are on regular grip track driving, but I still want to learn low speed drifting. Any suggestions on how I should approach this?

If you have the money get a 1.5 way or if you dont get a Vlsd. The 1.5 is probably the best road race diff(even better than helical) and the Vlsd is like the bullshit compromise you have to make if you dont want a locked diff and you dont have money foir a 1.5 clutch type. The clutch diff also requires maintenance and will need rebuilding over time, and if you want it to work perfectly you might want to re-arrange the clutches for a different lock percentage which is a lot of work if the LSD is already installed, but probably unnecessary unless you're anal about everything.

Additionally, would higher-grip rear tires on a welded diff increase off-throttle understeer?

thanks for the help.

Yes .

Originally Posted by i8yourfwd

Would anybody here take an open over a welded for GRIP driving?

Depends on the car setup. In a really stiff, well setup, high grip car i would take a welded diff and drive it F1 style. Slow in and accelerate all the way through, but you'd also need horsepower to make it work correctly. Otherwise I would take an open diff.



Another random thought for road racing

The ratio you choose(2-way, 1.5 way or 1 way) for your lsd should match the car in question. Driving the car with an open diff is the best way to figure it out.

For example let's say i have an S13 and it's set up for road racing. I've already set up the suspension and tire stagger perfectly so it doesn't understeer on turn-in and I can make it oversteer just by steering. Then the diff for me is the 1.5 way. It will probably help stop the extra oversteer on turn-in unless i'm trail-braking and i want to oversteer a little and it will lock strong and pull me out of the the apex when i get on the throttle.

If my car/driving style is hopeless understeer on turn-in, then i would stay far away from anything that has locking on decel, cause it will make it worse.

If I was setting up a car for auto-x, it would get a 1-way diff for easy rotation at lower speeds.

A car for drift, i'd use a 2way for straightening out the rear end mid drift by getting off the throttle.

[i8yourfwd]

My poor KA, doesn't have the power to drive that style I may jsut use an open for now till I get a helical.

[s13dan]

Well from experience dropping out a diff isnt THAT hard not fun but not too hard. i have considered using my VLSD everyday and having a welded diff to use on track weekends.. put it in friday race, sat and sunday, and remove on sunday night or something...

[DJPimpFlex]

welded for the win. When I was building my car I put a lot of money and time into everything and when I went and bought a welded diff everyone was like, why are you compromising? I dont think its a compormise at all. Its an awsome diff and you dont even notice it being 100% locked after 20mph or so. I've now been to 3 track days with it and its been delightful. I've done everything I can do with it and I will never buy or run another diff (unless someone wants to pay me!). I did a lot of grip driving with it at buttonwillow and thundergrip. I did a lot of parking lot style drifting at thundergrip also, and a LOT of 3rd gear really fast drifts and yesterdays grip and slip 2. Still the best thing to run for me. I cant justify spending $800+ for a diff when this one works so good.

EDIT: I can think of one bad thing about welded diff. Dont put it on a car that you will be pushing arround a lot. Its a fuckin bitch!

[DJPimpFlex]

ohh, also FAQ this when its done running it course!

[BigVinnie]

Welded diffs just seem scary for street use(icy roads, rainydays). LSD's serve a much better purpose for converting torque from one wheel or the other for its function and purpose for street use (well not really depends on the LSD, some not meant for the street like 2ways).
Has anyone ever had there weldlock snap?

[sdtouge]

Originally Posted by TheSquidd

Welded pro:



For drift, Welded > clutch

im really intersted in how many cars youve owned with 2ways... and what credentials you have to make that statement
for drifting sometimes i like more grip, after some off throttle and whatnot that a welded diff wont give you.

[McRussellPants]

Clutch type is superior.

But 50$ vs 800$ makes a strong arguement.

I'll be welding mine.

[SR20d2fourT]

My friend got his diff. welded today and it works great. I have to say it seems pretty good for the money. The only thing that I would have to say that would be bad for it would be the tires being eaten up. They did reinforce the welds to make sure everything stays in order. Other than that they work nicely

[kazuo]

+1 for archiving.

+2 for Var's excellent post. Basically sums up both sides of the argument, and, really, is probably the only guy qualified to comment in any "real" way as he's driven hard on every differential type available.

Driving welded on stock suspension isn't scary.

Trust me

[!Zar!]

Originally Posted by TurDz

!Zar!, I really don't appreciate the comments on me wanting to be "cool," that was totally besides the point. But since pro drifters do get the top quality products, I just had the question on why they would want clutch type diffs more than welded ones, as in the actual physical/technical reasons why. Has nothing ot do with coolness or "JDM-tyteness."

I never once said anything about you being cool or not. No hate eh?