How much Negative Camber do I have?(pic)

[hookedup240]

Yea, so i was contemplating on whether to get the camber bushings from pdm racing or to get upper control arms. The pdm bushings can fix up to 1.5 degree's of negative camber but i wasn't sure if i have more than that, and i really don't want to spend $300 on control arms if i don't have to.

So i just wanted some input as to how much negative camber i have if you guys can tell. My friend told me i have as much as 4-5 degree, but i was still unsure.

thanks

[Dousan_PG]

your picture angle sucks, cant tell from that pos pic
the PDM kit stuff is ok for the small corretions

you? rear upper adjustable arm. its the ONLY way to correct that much camber. simple as that.

here's -4 (back)




and -3.5 (Front)

[hookedup240]

yea sorry bout the pic didn't know where to take it from exactly. but i guess i have to start saving for arms then.

[Dousan_PG]

btw, my camber is on purpose. i set it that way. i have Kazama rear upper arms. work great. cost....eh..cant say, but i got them thru Jspec.

i know project silvia makes some
jic (overpriced-dont buy)
cusco

etc.

just hunt around. you'll end up paying near/around 300 though for sure. at least for quality
Projectsilvia might be less, but not sure on quality.

mine came w/ the little pillowball 'boot' same as the cusco's do.

high quality stuff.
check the group buy here on zilvia for kazama, not sure if its still going on..wortha shot! someone might flake so you never know..

[NiteKids]

WOW I didn't know peopel still went though the trouble of taking pics w/ normal cams, developing it, Scanning it resizing, making sure the color is good etc etc

all that just to post and then upload the pic

[Chernobyl]

WOW I didn't know peopel still went though the trouble of taking pics w/ normal cams, developing it, Scanning it resizing, making sure the color is good etc etc

Well, if you don't want to deal with getting a very nice color printer for the pics, regular photography still gives the clearest final product. If all you need pics for is to show off on message boards, then the digi cam is your best bet.

Anyway, that looks like about as much camber as i had when i bought my car. I got the battle version upper arms, but then needed the toe links as well. When you change the camber back to 0, your toe goes way out (negative), and can't be brought back to spec without adjustable toe arms (at least that's what happened on my car). I don't recommend you get the BV links though, the quality was not worth the $$$, IMO. The threads all rusted after the first couple weeks and the inner mounting point on the toe links wasn't wide enough and I ended up using washers to get it centered.

[Dousan_PG]

hookedup240

you should be concerned with that much camber (if its like -3 and more specifically) but even MORE concerned with how much toe in/out you have going on.

beyond -3 it will wear tires. but not as fast as it would with a bad toe setup

make sure your toe is ok

few ways to check (easiest and fastest first)

stand next to your car at rear fenders
lean over so your fender "covers" your tire (by vision and whre you are standing/leaning)
lean back to expose the tire, if the tire comes out 'equal' on both sides (front and back of tire), your toe is probably pretty much at 0 (zero)

if the front comes out faster (before you can see back of tire), you got toe out (bad)
if the back comes out faster (before you can see back of tire), you got toe in (bad)


harder/longer yet more accurate:

home made alignment

grab a friend to help
use a tape measure
start at front of tire,
hook the tape measure on one of the treads. have your friend hold the tape measure there.
now measure it to the other tire (push tape measure under car to reach other tire) at same tread point and same height of the other wheel/tire
write that number down!!

do the same on the rear of that SAME rear tire (use same tread points as you did on front of the tires)

if both are similar
exampe: let's say (guessing on numbers-dont take for real) front distance is 159 cm and rear is 159 cm apart
your toe is exactly 0!
GOOD!!

if the front is 180 cm and the back is 170 cm, thats bad
or front is 170cm and back is 180 cm, that's bad!
you want the difference very minimal-next to nothing. use judgement and calculate how much toe in/out you have. i dont recall what 'within spec' is though...

btw, that's a great way to measure toe if you replace arms or tie rods. get you on the street safely fr the time being until you can get it to the shop for alignment



hope that made sense!!!

[Dousan_PG]

Originally posted by Chernobyl
When you change the camber back to 0, your toe goes way out (negative), and can't be brought back to spec without adjustable toe arms (at least that's what happened on my car).

excellent point
camber changes AFFECT TOE!!


side note and VERY interesting

japanese eccentric stock bolt allow MORE TOE adjustment!
i had my toe as close to zero as possible and it was not enough
swap to the extra japanese ones we had (thanks adey) and back at almost zero!!!! (tape measure alignment...getting real oen shortly but it was MUCH better and very noticeable using the lean back technique and tape measure technique)

examining the adjust bolt (the washer part) it is SLIGHTLY larger then the USDM ones!! ill get pics one day (who know when i have it off). i got my toe almost back at zero (maybe 1mm to 2mm toe in-not serious enough to worry but MUCH better then what it was before almost 3/8 toe in on one side!!! )

i was very pleased and impressed! good to know!

[Bliss]

Originally posted by dousan36


harder/longer yet more accurate:

home made alignment

grab a friend to help
use a tape measure
start at front of tire,
hook the tape measure on one of the treads. have your friend hold the tape measure there.
now measure it to the other tire (push tape measure under car to reach other tire) at same tread point and same height of the other wheel/tire
write that number down!!

do the same on the rear of that SAME rear tire (use same tread points as you did on front of the tires)

I never thought about that. Great idea, dousan. Thanks.

[Dousan_PG]

Bliss,

its great to do that at the track if you need last minute adjustments to you alignment

also its important after EVERY CHANGE to the toe, you roll the car back and forth a good distance (not far just enough for the wheels to be at its natural stance) and remeasure. its time consuming but its the best cheap alignment for poor people and track nerds.

also if you change your toe arms (links) do one side at a time. make sure beofer you start your toe is at 0 or close to 0 as possible. then change one side. put wheels back on, measure it with above method to get it back to 0. once that side is at zero do same with otherside. this way, you wont be way out of wack.

if you do one at a time and measure it to 0 using other wheel (which was already at 0) your aligment will be pretty close to what it was before the arm change


im still learning how to do the camber one. caster....clueless. camber one is tricky. i havent figured it out/understood how to do it at the track yet.

[hookedup240]

ok dousan, thanks for all the info, but i'm a little confused, ok so camber doesn't cause tire wear, i got that.

I can see that my tire is out farther in the back, so that means i have toe in. And i am having problems with excessive wear, and that's mostly what i want to get rid of.

So quesion is what do i get to fix the toe? an alignment? or do i have to get that adjustable bolt thing. (sorry little confused on that part)

WOW I didn't know peopel still went though the trouble of taking pics w/ normal cams, developing it, Scanning it resizing, making sure the color is good etc etc

all that just to post and then upload the pic

Nitekids- I don't know what your talking about, its called a digital camera, and i put it on the site anyway.
Anyway why the **** do you care? Just trying to get your post count up?

[Dousan_PG]

yah! you'll kill your tires VERY fast if toe is that noticeable

best bet and i suggest this very highly you get it done asap

call around LOCAL SHOPS l(like mom and pop type) alignment!

try to score REAR END ONLY (2 wheel) alignment. should run no more then 20 to 30 USD

local shop should be cool and they are usually the most knowledgable. dont be afraid to ask how much expirience they have, it goes a long way and it also will help you set up a good reputaton with them and the more you go to same place the more willing they will help you/give you deals in the future (how you work sponsors and such hehe..)

now if they can't get it back to 0, or/and fix the camber either--and its too far out of spec range (if they can fix the camber of course go for it) then you'll need either:

rear toe links
rear upper arms

of course the toe links are MUCH MORE important. you can deal with the camber but that bad toe hurts..i went thru a tire fast with my bad alignment (toe in) ---but didnt matter cuz it was old tire -crap

but you can also say the upper arms are more importnat becuaseif youg et your camber back near 0, your stock toe links will be A-ok to use and dail out any bad toe. so either way is good...its your call on that.


you can get the PDM ones too, if you want to get it down some.
the alignment shop will tell you how much camber you really have and you go from there and decide. but remember youll need ANOTHER alignment after that (every camber change changes toe too). so if you can get a shop for like 20 bucks it will cost you 40 total after you get it all fixed not so bad.


i suggest pdm camber and rear toe links. get bestof both worlds. you'll get rid of your excessive camber for the most part and you'll definately get your toe fixed!



NOTE: I dont guarantee this will fix your problems, but its a start. talk with a knowledgable alignment shop for further advice/help!! i am NOT A EXPERT!! i claim no responsibility! just offering suggestions from my expirience!!

[hookedup240]

Originally posted by dousan36
yah! you'll kill your tires VERY fast if toe is that noticeable

best bet and i suggest this very highly you get it done asap

call around LOCAL SHOPS l(like mom and pop type) alignment!

try to score REAR END ONLY (2 wheel) alignment. should run no more then 20 to 30 USD

local shop should be cool and they are usually the most knowledgable. dont be afraid to ask how much expirience they have, it goes a long way and it also will help you set up a good reputaton with them and the more you go to same place the more willing they will help you/give you deals in the future (how you work sponsors and such hehe..)

now if they can't get it back to 0, or/and fix the camber either--and its too far out of spec range (if they can fix the camber of course go for it) then you'll need either:

rear toe links
rear upper arms

of course the toe links are MUCH MORE important. you can deal with the camber but that bad toe hurts..i went thru a tire fast with my bad alignment (toe in) ---but didnt matter cuz it was old tire -crap

but you can also say the upper arms are more importnat becuaseif youg et your camber back near 0, your stock toe links will be A-ok to use and dail out any bad toe. so either way is good...its your call on that.


you can get the PDM ones too, if you want to get it down some.
the alignment shop will tell you how much camber you really have and you go from there and decide. but remember youll need ANOTHER alignment after that (every camber change changes toe too). so if you can get a shop for like 20 bucks it will cost you 40 total after you get it all fixed not so bad.


i suggest pdm camber and rear toe links. get bestof both worlds. you'll get rid of your excessive camber for the most part and you'll definately get your toe fixed!



NOTE: I dont guarantee this will fix your problems, but its a start. talk with a knowledgable alignment shop for further advice/help!! i am NOT A EXPERT!! i claim no responsibility! just offering suggestions from my expirience!!

Ok, thanks a lot, yea i can see the toe in. I'm going to get the pdm camber thing and the rear toe links then. Maybe i should've done this last year, when i first got it lowered.

But yea my friend said he knows a good place to get an alignment at.

thanks again

[Dousan_PG]

great, btw, have your tires worn abnormally fast at all?

[hookedup240]

well i just put them back on about a month ago, and b4 that i put about 6k miles on them and the inside of the tire is pretty worn, almost to the arrow already. So total they have about 7-8k miles on them. But i was planing on getting new tires anyway after i fix this. Just sucks that good tires are like 160 each.

[Dousan_PG]

yeah that's toe for ya

what tires/size do you use anyways?

[hookedup240]

there 215/35/18's on 18X8's, aren't they kinda stretched, because i want to get some 225/35's.

[Dousan_PG]

what brand?
not too streched. no sidewall flex or if any its minimal.that's good. better response.

[240 2NR]

Another trick when measuring toe is to get two equal length 2x4's or other flat surface that you can lean against each tire. Then use the ends of each board (or whatever) to measure the toe difference front and back. The advantages are that on a flat surface both can be placed on the ground and help eliminate the variables from angling the tape measure or any slack in the line. The other is that they can extend further than the tire and allow for a "maginfication" of toe, as the board may be 1.5' long, but the sides of the tire may be less than a foot. The closer to zero the difference is from the sides you take your measurements from, the harder it is to find a noticable difference.

[hookedup240]

yea, the response is great. They are Falken Ziex-502's, they are all season tires. I think i'm going to go with the FK-451's when i replace them.

[Dousan_PG]

FALKEN tires?
you like falken

I HIGHLY Suggest falken ST115s!!
its the other Azenis version. its not as agressive a tire pattern but its VERY Popular in japan. Koguchi swears by it
so do a few friends of mine (bwalker, vrt mike -dj electrique- and jdmrice use it)

you should seriously check it out! its Azenis (something) in japan, has another name after it iirc. i can find out

you should really check it out. my friend used it on his S14...he LOVES it.

its only availalbe in 17s and up sizes in the USA
in japan its 15s and up i think..maybe 14s. great tire. i wish i had 17s, i would be all over it!

[sykikchimp]

You get toe in because the rear link is designed to ADD toe in as the suspension is compressed. The link rises above parallel to the ground and the distance b/w the vertical centerline through the mounting points get shorter, causing the front of the wheel to be pulled inward. Changes in camber do affect toe, but only slightly.

Key point is Ride Height is what effects toe.

What this means is, if you buy the upper arms, and adjust your camber back to -1 or so, your still going to have significant toe in. you WILL need the adjustable bushings (or the $$$ adjustable arms) for your toe links to bring it back to 0.

Dousan is correct that the Camber ccorrection bushings combined with the toe correction bushings (I think they may be the same part#) will get you were you need to be.

--Lowering the S-chassis has always been one of its weak points.. to maintain enough suspension travel so that toe changes aren't to drastic, you really can't lower the car more than about 1.5"'s before suspension compression during cornering loads causes fairly wild toe changes that cause erradic handling. (think the toe arm travel in an arc, causing toe to become exponentialy greater as the suspension is compressed.)

I can explain more if this is confusing.

[sykikchimp]

Originally posted by 240 2NR
Another trick when measuring toe is to get two equal length 2x4's or other flat surface that you can lean against each tire. Then use the ends of each board (or whatever) to measure the toe difference front and back. The advantages are that on a flat surface both can be placed on the ground and help eliminate the variables from angling the tape measure or any slack in the line. The other is that they can extend further than the tire and allow for a "maginfication" of toe, as the board may be 1.5' long, but the sides of the tire may be less than a foot. The closer to zero the difference is from the sides you take your measurements from, the harder it is to find a noticable difference.

Also remember just because you measure the same distance front and rear of the tires dosen't mean that you don't have toe problems. One may be in, and the other out. (however unlikely that may be) you also can't tell how much each tire specifically is out of whack.

If you have a center point on the suspension then you can adjust toe perfectly everytime at home (with a flat surface like a garage).. for example measure the distance b/w the mounting points on the subframe, and make a mark on the subframe. Then do your measurements front and rear of the tire, to that center point. Adjust as per Dousans instructions above.

[Dousan_PG]

YA! good point
if you dont have a center pont your wasting your time

see, if you are equal on both sides, maybe the right is 1/2 toe in and the left 1/2 toe out
yeah they are same measurement wise (front to front and back to back would be same), but when you drive your car it will pull healviy to the left becaues it is directed (toe) to left of car, same mearsurement wise, but improper because your centerpoint is tweaked at an angle

center point is extremely important!

\ \

center point is off (angled). see how front to front will measure same as back to back. but the center line dividing the car down middle is not straight. so your car will pull to left.

| |
center point is straight so wheels follow that line and head straight

[Bliss]

Dousan, Zilvia's own arteeest. Thanks for the info everyone.

[hurleyboi514]

i have the other Azenis, i love em... they came on my wheels. 205/55/16. i wish you could get them in the USA in 16"...

[hookedup240]

K thanks guys for all the info, helped me alot.

Dousan- i'm going to check out those tires, when i get new ones

[drift into a curb]

Originally posted by dousan36

its only availalbe in 17s and up sizes in the USA
in japan its 15s and up i think..maybe 14s. great tire. i wish i had 17s, i would be all over it!

They have a 16" but it's a 225/50 at tires.com.

[Dousan_PG]

Originally posted by drift into a curb
They have a 16" but it's a 225/50 at tires.com.

REALLY? Please show me. falken only has the ST115s in 17 and up on the website. please show me where it is in 16s


azenis, YES. st115s, NO.

also ST115s have steel braided sidewalls. PERFECT for those who stretch tires (like a 215/45 on a 9")


http://www.falkentire.com/html/produ.../azenis115.htm

From the FALKEN USA Site:

215/50R17
215/45ZR17
225/45ZR17
235/45ZR17
245/45ZR17
235/40ZR17
255/40ZR17
255/45ZR18
225/40ZR18
245/40ZR18
255/35ZR18
265/35ZR18
245/35ZR19
275/30ZR19
245/40ZR20

[AKADriver]

here ya go:

http://www.discounttiredirect.com/di...odeIndex=28793

Edit: damn, that direct link doesn't work. But there is a 225/50-16 ST115 listed on Discount Tire's web site, $97/tire.