is ground control suspension worth it?

[McCoy]

Originally Posted by Imprezive

I would not recommend buying their coil-over conversion kit if you plan on participating in any real type of motor sports. The coil over conversion kits are good if you simply want to have a lower car and slightly stiffer ride. Of course some cars do not respond as well lowering, especially if the hardware doesn't permit usage of the threaded sleeves Ground Control uses.

And what experience do you have to make this statement?!?

I've been using the GC hardware (coil-over conversion kit as you call it) for the past 4 years on a few different sentra's, have completed nearly 15K track miles, and many many autocrosses, along with daily useage. Oh yeah, the GC hardware was used when I got it and is still in use with the current owner.

So, do please explain...

[sideview_180sx]

anyone look into the KW motorsports version?? I know they offer 2 styles.

I've seen JRZ in used before. But that's $$$

[veilside180sx]

Originally Posted by McCoy

The S14 housings might be longer, but I think the collar (for where the sleeve will sit) will be in the same location, in relation to the top of the housing. Richard would probably know best since he's building my set of rear housings also

Spot on Monty, the housing is longer but the spring perch is in the same location on the tube. Only the strut itself is longer, but the spring would be the same length between them.

[Aoshi112]

Originally Posted by sideview_180sx

anyone look into the KW motorsports version?? I know they offer 2 styles.

I've seen JRZ in used before. But that's $$$

I only saw the KW Variant 3s available for the s13...


Oh yea hey Veilside180sx, are your housings solely for Koni 8611's and 8610s or can i put in a set of bilsteins in em?

[veilside180sx]

I have never tried to use a set of Bilstein dampers because most lack external adjusters for the damping.

PM me the specs on what you have and i'll let you know though.

[AceInHole]

Originally Posted by Aoshi112

I only saw the KW Variant 3s available for the s13...

I have the feeling KW uses a Koni insert in their shocks, although that's prety much solely based on the rebound adjuster looking a lot like the Koni tab.

Oh yea hey Veilside180sx, are your housings solely for Koni 8611's and 8610s or can i put in a set of bilsteins in em?

Bilstein fronts are a bottom-bolt insert type, and won't work with the gland nut used on the Koni housings. I'm sure he could make a set useable with Bilstein strut inserts, but for the rear it'd probably be better to get a set of bolt-on Bilsteins, or get some take-aparts that will fit.

Bilsteins are insanely upgradeable, too. If Wiisaas had an s-chassis Bilstein setup earlier I might've gone that route (with Penske or Bilstein resevoirs), but the modular design along with the ease of replacement with the Koni's being a standard part keeps me happy, along with them being double-adjustables from the get-go (Bilsteins are non-adjustable normally).

Eventually I'll upgrade to something even more digressive than the Koni 86's. It'd be cool if they released performance FSD inserts (like something based on their F1 stuff), but I'll probably end up with Motons, or Ohlins if they aren't much more (than Motons, at least).

[DOOK]

well damn it... coilovers may be getting tossed for this guy... I'm a grip minded driver and I doubt the D2s are gonna satisfy me, especially since on the shakedown run it jarred my balls loose... subscribed...

[Aoshi112]

Originally Posted by AceInHole

I have the feeling KW uses a Koni insert in their shocks, although that's prety much solely based on the rebound adjuster looking a lot like the Koni tab.



Bilstein fronts are a bottom-bolt insert type, and won't work with the gland nut used on the Koni housings. I'm sure he could make a set useable with Bilstein strut inserts, but for the rear it'd probably be better to get a set of bolt-on Bilsteins, or get some take-aparts that will fit.

Bilsteins are insanely upgradeable, too. If Wiisaas had an s-chassis Bilstein setup earlier I might've gone that route (with Penske or Bilstein resevoirs), but the modular design along with the ease of replacement with the Koni's being a standard part keeps me happy, along with them being double-adjustables from the get-go (Bilsteins are non-adjustable normally).

Eventually I'll upgrade to something even more digressive than the Koni 86's. It'd be cool if they released performance FSD inserts (like something based on their F1 stuff), but I'll probably end up with Motons, or Ohlins if they aren't much more (than Motons, at least).

I was thinking of doing the whole Koni 8611 setup just like Jason Rhoades car but man it was a lil more than what i wanted to spend. I was able to pick up a set of used bilsteins recently and was just wondering if i can do something similar to my friend Drew who did this http://supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=446817

Motons, Ohlins and all those are just overkill for what i want. I'm just a weekend road racer but i didn't want to buy into all those jdm coilover setups.


Veilside180sx, you got a pm.

-Jason

[veilside180sx]

Jason Rhodes ran 2817's, which are twice what the 8611 cost.

[Aoshi112]

oop nevermind. I thought I remember hearing from Propartsusa that he ran 8611s. Guess not!

[D1GP]

Originally Posted by AceInHole

I have the feeling KW uses a Koni insert in their shocks, although that's prety much solely based on the rebound adjuster looking a lot like the Koni tab.

Per a KW rep on Nasioc,

"KW is proud to use Koni as a partner on a small number of Variant 2 applications in our ever-growing lineup of coilovers. These specially built, KW Tuned and valved, Koni Built dampers provide the perfect ride adjustable solution for their respective applications. "

so it would not surprise me that they may have koni dampers in the variant 3 but i cannot say for sure.


is there any build-it-yourself solutions that would allow me to lower the front close to 2.5" and rear close to 2" (about what the KW V3 would do)? i want a hybrid between lowering and handling IF POSSIBLE. if so, i might as well save some money by not going with the V3.

[veilside180sx]

Koni doesn't offer an external res. insert, so any of the external ones are not Koni. i would imagine they must use Bilstein for those inserts...

[vw_nissan]

veilside180sx, you have PM

[D1GP]

Originally Posted by veilside180sx

Koni doesn't offer an external res. insert, so any of the external ones are not Koni. i would imagine they must use Bilstein for those inserts...

93SECoupe on here did not receive an external reservoir with his V3 and neither did some of the folks on Nasioc. so i'm thinking they made 2 different V3s...

[SR240DET]

Originally Posted by AceInHole

Koni 8611's are awesome. They're pretty much as good as it gets untill Moton/ Ohlins/ Koni 28's.

Spring perches set here:

do you think its possible the spring can/will come off the top hat like that pic under any kind of normal driving condition?

[veilside180sx]

If mine ever have...i can't tell.

The only time mine seperate like that is when it's jacked up off the ground.

[sideview_180sx]

on those who picked up the V3 was it the standard one or the motorsports version. Some of the guys in FormulaD are using KW V3 and they have external resevoirs.

[SR240DET]

Originally Posted by veilside180sx

If mine ever have...i can't tell.

The only time mine seperate like that is when it's jacked up off the ground.

when you make a custom setup do you make a flange for the top of the threaded sleeve as well?

[veilside180sx]

It's not necessary, the o-rings between the sleeve and the strut tube hold it in place (they also keep it from rotating). In addition the sleeve will not slip over the top of the gland nut, so either way it is not going anywhere.

[Tearlessj]

I wish GC made top-hats for 240's.

[jmauld]

Originally Posted by tearlessj

I wish GC made top-hats for 240's.

I have the Techno Toy Tuning top-hats and they seem to take up the least space (shock travel) of any of the other camber plates that I've seen in person. The only negative I have with the T3 hats is the cheap bolts that are included. Just replace them with stronger ones before installing.

[AceInHole]

Originally Posted by D1GP

Per a KW rep on Nasioc,

"KW is proud to use Koni as a partner on a small number of Variant 2 applications in our ever-growing lineup of coilovers. These specially built, KW Tuned and valved, Koni Built dampers provide the perfect ride adjustable solution for their respective applications. "

so it would not surprise me that they may have koni dampers in the variant 3 but i cannot say for sure.

That seems like good news. I took a closer look at some pics of supposed V3's and they did not have external res. The rears also didn't have the same shaft size as the front, so I'm assuming they're a variant of the 3011 or something.

is there any build-it-yourself solutions that would allow me to lower the front close to 2.5" and rear close to 2" (about what the KW V3 would do)? i want a hybrid between lowering and handling IF POSSIBLE. if so, i might as well save some money by not going with the V3.

The housings that Veilside180sx makes could potentially go as low as any coilovers on the market.

Originally Posted by SR240DET

do you think its possible the spring can/will come off the top hat like that pic under any kind of normal driving condition?

The Konis will pretty much retain the spring from damping force alone. The off-the-shelf yellows on full stiff take forever to return to full length if left alone, and the 8611's I have can hold up the wheel and tire when jacking the car up (untill you actually push it down). Basically, the springs won't unseat unless you're airborne for a few seconds.

[a_ahmed]

man this thread rocks...

[Wiisass]

Been busy the past couple days, so get ready for a long one. Sorry, but it will be full of good information.

Originally Posted by wannabe_drifter

I'd like to know more about valving...

I do not know anything about shock/springs. Not too long ago, I still though coilovers we're the best option for suspension but been reading more and more and I am learning (as stated here alot !!) that a good shock spring combination is way better...

I will probably look to upgrade my suspension eventually, maybe next summer if the wallet permits it !!! So I will now be looking for a shock/spring combo.

Many people on here talk about custom valving, and spring rates (??? : 8kg, 6kg, 7kg) So in short what I am wondering is :

How to match spring rates well with the valving, or basically how to choose a shock/spring combo that are gonna match one another really well looking at spring rate vs shock valving (also considering weight of a stock S13 in my case) ???

Also what should I base my decision on to get a softer or harder spring ??? (still considering I do not have any shock yet)

It's not so much that a good shock/spring setup versus a coilover. It's all just a spring and a damper. The problem is that most JDM coilovers have sub par damping. I wish there was a good JDM or any market coilover that had decent valving and wasn't a ridiculous price. It's too bad that these companies can't pull it off for some reason or another.

But there's a lot, or there should be a lot, that goes into selecting a spring rate. It has to do with sprung weight, unsprung weight, geometry, intended use, tires, wheels, power, sway bars, cg height, wheelbase, etc. It's a lot and it's not the easiest to explain. If you really want to figure it out on your own, start studying spring-mass-damper vibrations models and natural frequencies and all of that fun stuff. But even after that, it's a lot more complicated, it depends on what natural frequency range you want to be in, the ratio of front to rear, and then you have to look at lateral loading and roll and weight transfer and understeer/oversteer balance and it's just a lot. Usually you can pick a good starting point and then fine tune from there.

After you get the spring rates, then you look at the dampers. It depends what damper you're going to use, how adjustable, are they revalvable, do you have dyno plots, depending on the answers to all of these, you can pick a damper. If it's revalveable then you can just revalve it to suit your spring rate and mass. If it's not, but it's adjustable enough and consistent, then you can just adjust until you get it right. Or if you have dyno plots, you can calculate a range of springs that will work, then compare it to your other numbers, and then pick the best compromise.

I know, it sounds complicated and a lot of people won't go through all this trouble and they will eventually get to where they want to be. But I like to run all the numbers, do all the calcs, so then I know what to expect and since i have verified the model I use, I know it is relatively accurate as long as any assumptions I had to make were accurate.

Originally Posted by McCoy

The only person that I know who has some good experience with Zeals is my coworker and good friend that owns an STI. He's been through 4 different setups on his car, started with JIC IIRC, went back to the stock struts with GC hardware, then onto Zeals, and finally Ohlins.

I've autocrossed his car on several occassions, rode and drove his car with all 4 of these setups and have my own opinions, which should be take with a grain of salt of course. I know it's not a S-chassis, so take it as you will...

Ohlins - He's been running these for the past 1.5 years and has about 6K track miles on them. Riding in the car you can hardly even tell your on 7K/6K springs and it eats up the biggest bumps and railroad tracks without the need of a kidney belt or a mouth piece. I don't think he'll ever change from this setup... of course this was not cheap by any standard.

Zeals - these killed the JIC's and stock struts, but seemed to have more compression built into them than Brian liked. On the track, coming out of lower speed corners at full boost his car would actually start oscillating... you could feel it as the passanger and see it from the side of the track. On the road it was stiffer than he wanted for the several long drives he takes with the car.

Stock struts/GC hardware - Was fine, but the struts would start to fail on track after 15 minutes... they just weren't up to the task of track duty with stiffer springs.

JIC - crap... bouncing headlights going down the road, that's all I need to say about them.

Good feedback, that's the kind of stuff I like to hear.

Originally Posted by AceInHole

Koni 8611's are awesome. They're pretty much as good as it gets untill Moton/ Ohlins/ Koni 28's.

You forgot Bilstein.

Originally Posted by veilside180sx

Tsk Tsk...I just have to finish welding up the S13/S14 rears. I have everything made to use either 8610 or 8611's back there. The downside is that you have to run a Z32 spindle since that's all i've made brackets for thus far. (I know I know...heaven forbid you drop 8 lbs in the rear)

Still needs to be have the sleeve flange welded on and powdercoated, but here's a pic. Shorter=S13 Longer=S14

Nice, they look like they're coming out good. What are your plans for accessing the adjuster on the bottom of the 8611? Unbolt the lower and adjust? Or develop a sweet right angle screw driver that can tuck in there to adjust them.

Originally Posted by AceInHole

450F 375R would probably be a good start if you street drive it a lot, as it's slightly stiffer than the 8/6 rates that come on most coilovers. Otherwise, with minimal street driving, the 600/450 I'm running now works well (not sure if they'll be as good with 8610's, though). In either case, I'd ditch the rear swaybar.

Do you really think ditching the rear sway bar is helping? Just based on the numbers, the rear bar is already pretty soft, especially compared to the front. Is this going back to the lifting the rear wheel issue? Or do you really feel it helps put power down? Could is also have to do with a less rigid chassis because of no cage? And chassis flex is messing with rear loading coming out of the turn? Have you noticed any steady-state understeer issues since removing it? Or is that the way you would rather have the car? More biased towards understeer, a little past neutral? I'm sure we've talked about all of this before, but just for everyone else and the other people that have removed the rear sway.

Originally Posted by turtl631

I already have Stance coilovers, not too thrilled with them at this point.

I've heard that ditching the rear sway is a good idea many times now- I've got to try that.

Thanks for the advice on rates. I don't have a second car, but I walk to school so I only drive intermittently. Still, with Chicago streets being akin to the surface of the moon, I might be better off with lower rates than those ideal for a smooth track. If I change to this setup I'll probably get a few extra sets of springs to mess with too. Do the front and rear springs have different lengths with the 8610 setup?

With a good damper, you will be able to get away with much higher spring rates and still have a comfortable ride. Ride quality has a lot more to do with the high speed compression damping than it does with the spring rate. But then again, it also seems that people describe harshness or ride quality issues differently and their feedback might not be completely accurate of what is causing what they're feeling. Not directed at you, just people in general.

Originally Posted by Imprezive

It all depends on your price range. Ground Control can set you up with a decent koni/eibach kit, they even offer some custom valved koni's for certain applications.

I would not recommend buying their coil-over conversion kit if you plan on participating in any real type of motor sports. The coil over conversion kits are good if you simply want to have a lower car and slightly stiffer ride. Of course some cars do not respond as well lowering, especially if the hardware doesn't permit usage of the threaded sleeves Ground Control uses.

If you haven't yet, give them a call and see what they can offer you. Tell them what application you will be using the car for and they will come up with a set-up for you.

You're missing the point of everything it seems. Everything that we're talking about, whether it be "coilovers", a ground control/koni setup, spring sleeves on custom housings, whatever, it's all just a spring and damper combination. And if put together correctly, there is no structural difference between a spring sleeve and a threaded body damper. And as the posts after your have proved, there are several people on here doing real motorsports with a setup like that and even more people with other cars doing other motorsports with spring sleeves.

Originally Posted by sideview_180sx

anyone look into the KW motorsports version?? I know they offer 2 styles.

I've seen JRZ in used before. But that's $$$

I am supposed to be getting my hands on a set of the motorsports stuff soon. It was actually supposed to be about a month ago, but now I don't know when it will happen. It would be nice if they would arrive soon, after that I will have a lot of feedback on how they are. This is going to be the same setup that the DA guys are running on Hampshaa's car.

Originally Posted by AceInHole

Bilstein fronts are a bottom-bolt insert type, and won't work with the gland nut used on the Koni housings. I'm sure he could make a set useable with Bilstein strut inserts, but for the rear it'd probably be better to get a set of bolt-on Bilsteins, or get some take-aparts that will fit.

Bilsteins are insanely upgradeable, too. If Wiisaas had an s-chassis Bilstein setup earlier I might've gone that route (with Penske or Bilstein resevoirs), but the modular design along with the ease of replacement with the Koni's being a standard part keeps me happy, along with them being double-adjustables from the get-go (Bilsteins are non-adjustable normally).

Eventually I'll upgrade to something even more digressive than the Koni 86's. It'd be cool if they released performance FSD inserts (like something based on their F1 stuff), but I'll probably end up with Motons, or Ohlins if they aren't much more (than Motons, at least).

The Bilsteins should fit in a housing for the 86series dampers. You're looking at a 1.81" OD for the Bilstein 36mm inserts. So it's a little bigger and may fit depending on the inside diameter of the tubes.

I wish I had that Bilstein setup done earlier because then I would have more time to test it. But things should be getting dynoed next week, so at least I'll have some sweet dyno plots and know what I'm starting with.

We never finished that FSD discussion we started in another thread like this. I'm still not sure if it's as cool as it sounds, I mean it sounds pretty good and if they're using it on F1 cars, it probably does something. But then again, F1 is all about aero right now, but I do have a couple articles about FSD and they kind of tell you how it works. I remember thinking it was kind of just like a blow off valve for the damping, but most blow off valves are on the piston, but the FSD is part of the foot valve. So it seems like it's a blow off valve but it's for the change in volume in the shock due to the shaft coming in. So the amount it opens is based on the entry of the shaft.

Originally Posted by veilside180sx

Jason Rhodes ran 2817's, which are twice what the 8611 cost.

Probably more like 3x, 259 list versus 750 list. At least the last time I checked.

Originally Posted by veilside180sx

Koni doesn't offer an external res. insert, so any of the external ones are not Koni. i would imagine they must use Bilstein for those inserts...

Bilstein hasn't really offered any external reservoirs until this year. Besides the ones they use on some offroad cars which I don't think are adjustable for anything other than gas pressure. So I don't know what they're using. It could be something they made on their own. Or someone else's. I don't know, but I doubt it's Bilstein.

Originally Posted by AceInHole

The Konis will pretty much retain the spring from damping force alone. The off-the-shelf yellows on full stiff take forever to return to full length if left alone, and the 8611's I have can hold up the wheel and tire when jacking the car up (untill you actually push it down). Basically, the springs won't unseat unless you're airborne for a few seconds.

They also have no gas charge, correct? At least I don't think they do, which is the reason they warn you not to compress them when they're on their side or upside down. So you won't introduce the air that is in the outer of the tubes into the inner tube.

But even if they did extend quicker or it was a gas charged shock will which extend quicker, you could just use a help spring which will keep things connected.

Alright, I think that's it. Hopefully it wasn't too much.

Tim

[veilside180sx]

Originally Posted by Wiisass

Good feedback, that's the kind of stuff I like to hear.

Nice, they look like they're coming out good. What are your plans for accessing the adjuster on the bottom of the 8611? Unbolt the lower and adjust? Or develop a sweet right angle screw driver that can tuck in there to adjust them.

I'll use a right angle flat head. There should be plenty of room, or you can just as easily undo one bolt to adjust it since it's not like a hub flange that you have to get positioned "just right".


With a good damper, you will be able to get away with much higher spring rates and still have a comfortable ride. Ride quality has a lot more to do with the high speed compression damping than it does with the spring rate. But then again, it also seems that people describe harshness or ride quality issues differently and their feedback might not be completely accurate of what is causing what they're feeling. Not directed at you, just people in general.

Agreed, a good damper goes a long ways towards making motorsports spring rates drivable on the street. My current springs on my Sentra are 440/400 and with a JDM setup would be kidney killers, instead you just soak it up and keep going almost like a stock setup would.


You're missing the point of everything it seems. Everything that we're talking about, whether it be "coilovers", a ground control/koni setup, spring sleeves on custom housings, whatever, it's all just a spring and damper combination. And if put together correctly, there is no structural difference between a spring sleeve and a threaded body damper. And as the posts after your have proved, there are several people on here doing real motorsports with a setup like that and even more people with other cars doing other motorsports with spring sleeves.

I'll leave that one alone....

The Bilsteins should fit in a housing for the 86series dampers. You're looking at a 1.81" OD for the Bilstein 36mm inserts. So it's a little bigger and may fit depending on the inside diameter of the tubes.

I wish I had that Bilstein setup done earlier because then I would have more time to test it. But things should be getting dynoed next week, so at least I'll have some sweet dyno plots and know what I'm starting with.


Those Bilsteins OD would fit in my housings just fine, assuming they weren't threaded and were cut an extra inch longer before assembly.

Probably more like 3x, 259 list versus 750 list. At least the last time I checked.

The 2817 are about $1250/ea + hub flanges and the $8611 comes out to about 259+housing+gland nut+sleeve. After all those changes they come out to a little over twice as much.

Bilstein hasn't really offered any external reservoirs until this year. Besides the ones they use on some offroad cars which I don't think are adjustable for anything other than gas pressure. So I don't know what they're using. It could be something they made on their own. Or someone else's. I don't know, but I doubt it's Bilstein.

That's good to know, but you can add ext. res. to most of their dampers from my understanding right?

They also have no gas charge, correct? At least I don't think they do, which is the reason they warn you not to compress them when they're on their side or upside down. So you won't introduce the air that is in the outer of the tubes into the inner tube.

But even if they did extend quicker or it was a gas charged shock will which extend quicker, you could just use a help spring which will keep things connected.


Your not really supposed to flip any twin tube damper over really. Which is why they aren't supposed to be rotated past 45 degree's while in use.

Tim

I guess it didn't like me embedding all of my comments in your quote, so this is to get it to let me post it.=)

[Wiisass]

I'll use a right angle flat head. There should be plenty of room, or you can just as easily undo one bolt to adjust it since it's not like a hub flange that you have to get positioned "just right".

Sounds good, I just couldn't tell if there was much room in there. I was trying to picture the Z32 arm. Unbolting the shock isn't bad, I mean if you really wanted to, you could probably just use a shear pin with a cotter pin on the end. Then you just pull the cotter pin, pull out the pin, adjust and throw it back together without having to unbolt anything. And it would be perfectly safe.

Those Bilsteins OD would fit in my housings just fine, assuming they weren't threaded and were cut an extra inch longer before assembly.

Nice, maybe I will be getting in touch with you for one of those inserts. What's the depth on them? You said 11.75" right?

The 2817 are about $1250/ea + hub flanges and the $8611 comes out to about 259+housing+gland nut+sleeve. After all those changes they come out to a little over twice as much.

Oh ok, I didn't even consider the rest of it.

That's good to know, but you can add ext. res. to most of their dampers from my understanding right?

With any of their take aparts, it's as easy as unthreading the schraeder valve and threding in the line to the external reservoir then refilling and you're good to go. I mean you should adjust compression valving after that. For a lot of the Bilstein stuff I'm doing, I'm adding schraeder valves to the OE replacement dampers, revalving them and doing all that fun stuff, so I could add an external reservoir to those as well. So anything with a bung on it that you can thread an adapter or the actual line could work.

Tim

[Aoshi112]

I'm so excited that we're actually discussing proper suspension setups finally for our cars! Lots of great info here.

Tim, I can't wait to get my Bilsteins overhauled by you and hit the track. I'll try to get as much feedback as possible with a real driver behind the wheel as I have little experience road racing. I'll be throwing Matt aka turbomx5 on supraforums behind the wheel! heh

To others interested, you CAN find used Bilsteins from japan as i did most recently! Took me more than 5 months of searching though.

-Jason

[jmauld]

Originally Posted by Aoshi112

To others interested, you CAN find used Bilsteins from japan as i did most recently! Took me more than 5 months of searching though.

-Jason

FWIW, Bilstein will revalve all 4 shocks for around $275. They did a good job at getting the valving to match the rates that I'm using, and they did it with a 3 week turn around time.

[jmauld]

here's a picture of how I lowered mine in the stock housing. This isn't complete because I don't have the spring perch sitting that low.

[Aoshi112]

Originally Posted by jmauld

FWIW, Bilstein will revalve all 4 shocks for around $275. They did a good job at getting the valving to match the rates that I'm using, and they did it with a 3 week turn around time.

Yea that's the main reason why I wanted to go with Bilsteins. But i'm going to have Tim do some special work to mine