Titan V8 in a 240

[Iceman00]

Originally Posted by usdmsilvia

S13 sr20det's redline at 7500 so NO not only hondas redline that high.

Sarcasm. I got Neg Rep. and it said something to the effect of "7000rpm redlines are for Hondas"

[ch1873857]

oh god..here we go again.

[Iceman00]

Originally Posted by ch1873857

oh god..here we go again.

If you have nothing to add, go bitch some place else. I'm trying to make this informative.

[ch1873857]

you are informing everyone that you would chose the VQ swap over LS1 because its cheaper? how is that informative? you showed a bunch of ebay auctions. now thats solid information for ya.

[gigimow]

The OP asked about a Titian V8 into a 240sx and I think it's been answer on page 1. I don't know why you are trying to justify a VQ35 swap over a LSx. Whatever swap you want/need, it's going to take money. I give prop to all the people who wants to be different. I've was fortunate enough to ride in a SR and LS1 240sx. Both owner are very happy with their choice of engine.

As far as you choice of ebay auctions, they don't tell half the story. You show an auction that not ended. We all know that the majority of the bidding is near the end, so your price of $255 is not realistic. I could have easily show you a LS1 engine for under $255 with 5 days till ending. That's not realistic either.

If VQ swap is your thing, more power to you. I wouldn't mind having either engine to replace my SOHC KA. Either way, good luck.

[Kn1ves]

Originally Posted by Iceman00

Again, the LSX swap is for rabid fanboys who think its the cool thing to do, just like drifting. I think its a Shit motor, and a Shit swap, but thats just me.

(eBay links)

VQ and Stock engines > LSx swaps.

Wow how bout we keep opinions to a minimum and keep facts to a maximum.

Question 1)
Why is LSx a fanboy engine?

Question 2)
If LSx is a fanboy engine, why are there so many fans of said engine?

Question 3)
If one suggests an engine (VQ) over another engine (LSx), doesn't that person become a fan of the suggested engine?

Conclusion:
So if you are a fan of the VQ, and you are arguing over a fan of the LSx, you will get nowhere since all you have is opinions.

Here just for good measure:
VQ swaps are for fanboys (like Iceman00) who thinks its cool to drag race.
I think its a Shit motor and a Shit swap, but thats just me.

LSx and stock engines > VQ swaps.

What I just said, doesn't fucking matter. Just like eBay links.
(If you don't understand that then let me explain, eBay is where you sell stuff for how much you think [your opinion] your item will sell for, not the factual price of said item. Opinions aren't worth shit.)

[usdm180sx]

Originally Posted by Iceman00

Sarcasm. I got Neg Rep. and it said something to the effect of "7000rpm redlines are for Hondas"

Sarcasm? You should choose your words more carefully then. As far as the neg rep, honestly, I forgot. I probably did leave some for you because of your attitude. So far, the only things that you have demonstrated about yourself in this thread are:

1. You are extremely opinionated
2. You think drifting is gay
3. You like to call people on here faggots because they don't agree with your opinion.

Based on your rep, NO ONE cares what you think so you might as well stop wasting time and effort trying to impose your opinion on the other members of this forum. Maybe you should try another forum?

[yokotas13]

v8 > anything

[codyace]

Originally Posted by gigimow

How much do you think a VQ swap would cost? They are not cheap, just look at vqswap.com and you would realize that the basic setup is over $3000 not counting the engine. I don't know where you got your info from but sounds to me you need to research more and talk less.

LOL. Truth. I always love how people look at the initial cost of things, and base their entire opinion on that. In the end, any swap is going to be expensive, so I'd rather have the best bang for buck. To me, a VQ is a big waste of time for lack of power. That LS1 stock would walk circles around a bolt on vq....

Originally Posted by johngriff

This thread makes me question where all the hate on the internet comes from.

He doesn't act that way on Altima forums....which is odd why he does that here.

I think it sounds cool as hell. I'd do it. I'd build it.

Any v8 in a s chassis would rock hard...vh/vk/ls1/Windsor based...anything

Originally Posted by Iceman00

I usually agree with you, but this time your wrong. Above are the said wieghts for those motors.

I gave you out of box weight from GM for the LSx engine. The weight they gave you isn't correct. I'll believe GM and the shipping company before a random guy with a scale. You also realize how easy it is to read wrong and or manipulate scales right?

Originally Posted by Iceman00

Again, the LSX swap is for rabid fanboys who think its the cool thing to do, just like drifting. I think its a Shit motor, and a Shit swap, but thats just me.

You're entitled to your opinion, but it's just that...nothign factual at all behind why you think that way, and certainly nothing of value to sway others into believing that way. Weight differences are negotiable...even if the LS1 did weight 200 more (even though it doesn't), it's still an excellent swap candidate!

Originally Posted by Iceman00

And how much do you think it will run you for a VQ swap compared to an lSx Swap?

The same.

PS: Why would anyone EVER goto ebay looking for real world prices.

Originally Posted by Iceman00

VQ and Stock engines > LSx swaps.

That's your opinion...but technically, performance and application wise it's wrong.

Originally Posted by Iceman00

http://www.zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=105615&page=5

These guys were paying over 4500 for the motor and trans alone, and another 7K in install and parts. This swap is a pipe dream.

That doesn't mean they all cost that much. Some guys can swap in SR20's for half the price of others, and make the same power.

Originally Posted by Iceman00

If you have nothing to add, go bitch some place else. I'm trying to make this informative.

You've added nothign informative aside from engine weights that are certainly (and easily) debateable.

Originally Posted by ch1873857

you are informing everyone that you would chose the VQ swap over LS1 because its cheaper? how is that informative? you showed a bunch of ebay auctions. now thats solid information for ya.

Ebay ...the performance headquarters of those who can't afford real projects since 2001. (Sarcasm, but Im' sure those who understand get my point)

Originally Posted by yokotas13

v8 > anything

Certainly!

[drift freaq]

Well look where this has all gone. I am going to say this, I am not going to quote anyone to directly target their statements.

First off the LS1 is indeed a very awesome engine. Is the install cheap in our cars? Yes if you do it back yard ghetto style. If done the right way? Its expensive, LS1 car owners know this fact.

Second off, Whoever thinks the VQ series of engines does not have potential or is worthless expensive swap has really not done their research or seen a VQ swapped car in action.

Fact : a 300hp stock VQ engine can be had with all needed components for the swap for,3k! How do I know this? I own one, a 2005 Rev Up engine complete with the goodies and modules!

Fact: the VQ35HR aka the 2007 engine was redesigned with boost in mind. The block was reinforced the stroke was shortened for higher revs and it got a symetrical intake and exhaust.(This is the engine I really want hehehhe)
Get one of these and it will hold boost should you decide to Turbo.

Fact:Nismo's engine of tune is the VQ30DET

Fact: Formula Renault in Europe is run with VQ30DET engines.

Fact: Nismo is heavily involved in Renaults Formula one efforts.

Now the only reason I state the above info is to stop the people that trash VQ's from trashing them without a little info. I am not saying its the all out shit. I will say its one of the better V6 engines in existence today. The VQ series is what Nissan is basing all their top performance cars around and its not shabby.

For a little history lesson to the Nay sayers. Their once was a RB20 a pretty standard Nissan six cylinder it was in a lot of their cars. They decided to make it a little better. The 25 was born, more of a performance engine but still a cross platform engine. Then they developed the RB26 aka Godzilla for the sake of all out Performance and racing.
Point being when the RB started it was no great shakes of an engine in a lot of peoples eyes. Now people worship the ground of RB25's and RB26's. My how things change over time.
Nissan is going the same route with the VQ series and the engines are monsters in sheeps clothing.

Is the VQ swap into our chassis's really expensive? The current offerings out there make it seem that way. There is really no reason for that in my opinion.
Your looking at getting all the proper pieces and doing the wiring. The install process itself is not that hard. Your wiring is probably the toughest part. Does that mean the swap should be expensive? No. Do current people that do it make it expensive? Yes, because they are in business and want to make money off it.
Is a LS1 swap done right more expensive? In my opinion yes. Do I not like or appreciate a LS1 swap? No.

Now to the OP if you want to try to put a Titan engine in your car go do it. I personally think the engine won't fit well and do side with the LS1 people on the choice of it for a V8 install.
Though anyone who says the VQ is shit and is not worth it, really does need to more research on the VQ series before posting.

[Iceman00]

*Sigh*
I'm an arrogant prick on here, because people are ignorant. Just like the idiot who tried to argue about the Turbo VQ.

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247771
450lbs

http://vorshlag.com/weights.php
450lbs

http://corvetteactioncenter.com/specs/z06/ls1ls6.html
450lbs

http://www.engineswaptech.com/forums/thread/1186.aspx
450lbs

Like I said, around 600lbs+ for an LSx motor with trans.

Originally Posted by usdmsilvia

Sarcasm? You should choose your words more carefully then. As far as the neg rep, honestly, I forgot. I probably did leave some for you because of your attitude. So far, the only things that you have demonstrated about yourself in this thread are:

1. You are extremely opinionated (I'm right)
2. You think drifting is gay (It's not a thought, I know it's gay. You are welcome to disagree)
3. You like to call people on here faggots because they don't agree with your opinion. (I didn't call anyone a faggot in this thread to my knowledge)
Based on your rep, NO ONE cares what you think so you might as well stop wasting time and effort trying to impose your opinion on the other members of this forum. Maybe you should try another forum?

Incorrect, My rep is because I rightfully think Drifting is retarded. I have yet for anyone to provide me with any real data to refute what I have posted. When/if they do, I will proudly admit were I was wrong.

Originally Posted by Kn1ves

Wow how bout we keep opinions to a minimum and keep facts to a maximum.

Question 1)
Why is LSx a fanboy engine?
It seem every thread with LSx swap likes to ignore thier short commings, and add false information involving them, including, but not limited too
Price, Fuel ecomomy, Reliablity, weight
Question 2)
If LSx is a fanboy engine, why are there so many fans of said engine?
Same reason their are fans of drifting. Ignorance, and letting the fad take over proper judgement.
Question 3)
If one suggests an engine (VQ) over another engine (LSx), doesn't that person become a fan of the suggested engine?
The VQ is quite possibly the best mass produced V6 ever. The fact that Nissan Seems to be able to add Power at will, while adding refinement, increasing gas milage, and adding new advanced features makes this something to really look at as far as swaps go.

Conclusion:
So if you are a fan of the VQ, and you are arguing over a fan of the LSx, you will get nowhere since all you have is opinions.
I have facts on my side.

Here just for good measure:
VQ swaps are for fanboys (like Iceman00) who thinks its cool to drag race.
I think its a Shit motor and a Shit swap, but thats just me.
Right. I see the sarcasm, but I don't really care for drag racing.

LSx and stock engines > VQ swaps.


What I just said, doesn't fucking matter. Just like eBay links.
(If you don't understand that then let me explain, eBay is where you sell stuff for how much you think [your opinion] your item will sell for, not the factual price of said item. Opinions aren't worth shit.)

Why don't you check Ebay again for the average price of a LSx motor. And I doubt you'll be able to find a 2001+ LS1 motor for around the same price as a VQ35DE (rev Up or otherwise)

[ThatGuy]

Originally Posted by Iceman00

Incorrect, My rep is because I rightfully think Drifting is retarded. I have yet for anyone to provide me with any real data to refute what I have posted. When/if they do, I will proudly admit were I was wrong.

Incorrect. Your Rep is because you're a pompous ass who can't convey a thought without trying to insult someone. Now stop trying to defend yourself, and allow this debate to come to an end. It is about putting a Titan V8 into a 240 in case everyone forgot.

[Iceman00]

Originally Posted by ThatGuy

Incorrect. Your Rep is because you're a pompous ass who can't convey a thought without trying to insult someone. Now stop trying to defend yourself, and allow this debate to come to an end. It is about putting a Titan V8 into a 240 in case everyone forgot.

Listen. I can read what my rep says, and most, if not 90% of it is because of my view on how poinless drifting is.

Anyhow, according to everyone here, weight is meaningless, and Torque is everything. The VK56 should be about 50lbs more than the LS1, but makes a assload more torque, and with JWT S2 cams, has a reasonable top end Pull. I doubt anything short of a fully bolted on LS1 could keep up.

(word is, Titans dyno around what stock LS1's do...hmm.....)

[SexPanda]

I still dont think the titan vk56 is the best V8 to go in a 240. Its a big engine. A vh45 would be pretty cool though. I wonder if i could get ahold of one around here.

Kinda off topic, but has anyone seen a 5.0 mustang engine in a 240, i mean in real life? I can pikc one up... well a wrecked 91 gt... for 700 bucks, if the guy hasnt already sold it. I was thinking about doing that as a cool little project. Just wanted to know if anyone had any experience with that.

[ThatGuy]

Originally Posted by SexPanda

I still dont think the titan vk56 is the best V8 to go in a 240. Its a big engine. A vh45 would be pretty cool though. I wonder if i could get ahold of one around here.

Kinda off topic, but has anyone seen a 5.0 mustang engine in a 240, i mean in real life? I can pikc one up... well a wrecked 91 gt... for 700 bucks, if the guy hasnt already sold it. I was thinking about doing that as a cool little project. Just wanted to know if anyone had any experience with that.

If you read through the V8 240sx FAQ thread, the 5.0 is discussed a couple times. I believe someone is running a supercharged 5.0 in (Don't read any further Iceman!) the Drifting community.

[Iceman00]

Originally Posted by SexPanda

I still dont think the titan vk56 is the best V8 to go in a 240. Its a big engine. A vh45 would be pretty cool though. I wonder if i could get ahold of one around here.

Kinda off topic, but has anyone seen a 5.0 mustang engine in a 240, i mean in real life? I can pikc one up... well a wrecked 91 gt... for 700 bucks, if the guy hasnt already sold it. I was thinking about doing that as a cool little project. Just wanted to know if anyone had any experience with that.

Wait. If it fits, and Its only 50lbs more than the LS1, why not?

[Iceman00]

Originally Posted by ThatGuy

If you read through the V8 240sx FAQ thread in Tech, the 5.0 is discussed a couple times. I believe someone is running a supercharged 5.0 in (Don't read any further Iceman!) the Drifting community.

Blasphemy!

Anyhow, If you like torque, this is hard to argue

[SexPanda]

Originally Posted by ThatGuy

If you read through the V8 240sx FAQ thread, the 5.0 is discussed a couple times. I believe someone is running a supercharged 5.0 in (Don't read any further Iceman!) the Drifting community.

Yeah i read through it, and there was a little bit of good info, but i was just seeing if anyone else knew anything... else i suppose. A little reptitious there. Oh well i thought about it, and scrapped the idea a little while ago.

Originally Posted by Iceman00

Blasphemy!

Anyhow, If you like torque, this is hard to argue

Shit I love torque. Maybe I will get that 5.0.

[ThatGuy]

I like the way this one looks. That's my opinion. LS2 with a Cam, K&N, and headers.

Since I'd have to run non-stock headers for it to fit in my car anyway, as well as a non-stock intake piping set-up, and cams are very easy to change on the LSx engines. This is right up my alley. That's 426rwhp, more than enough for an S-Chassis in my mind.

[SexPanda]

Originally Posted by ThatGuy

I like the way this one looks. That's my opinion. LS2 with a Cam, K&N, and headers.

Since I'd have to run non-stock headers for it to fit in my car anyway, as well as a non-stock intake piping set-up, and cams are very easy to change on the LSx engines. This is right up my alley. That's 426rwhp, more than enough for an S-Chassis in my mind.

Damn thats nice. If I had the money, id be sportin that... Idk though, i think 200 hp would be enough for me.., as long as i had mad torque (lol) Actually I guess the 4.6 out of the mid90's mustangs had something like 220, according to a friend with one. With a few bolt ons, 300hp would be easy. Maybe ill look into that.

[Iceman00]

Must be a Big cam, considering that motor lost over 75lb-ft at redline. JWT Needs a Bigger Camshafts* in the VK To show what that motor can do.

Torque gets old fast for me, I love the feeling of more and More power as the RPM's Rise.

[Kn1ves]

Originally Posted by Iceman00

Wait. If it fits, and Its only 50lbs more than the LS1, why not?

Because there's no manual option?

Originally Posted by Iceman00

Torque gets old fast for me, I love the feeling of more and More power as the RPM's Rise.

Do you know how to read dyno graphs...

[gsracer]

Yes there is , there is an adapter plate to bolt up a z33 six speed to the vk56

[Kn1ves]

Wow how bout we keep opinions to a minimum and keep facts to a maximum.

Question 1)
Why is LSx a fanboy engine?
It seem every thread with LSx swap likes to ignore thier short commings, and add false information involving them, including, but not limited too
Price, Fuel ecomomy, Reliablity, weight
Question 2)
If LSx is a fanboy engine, why are there so many fans of said engine?
Same reason their are fans of drifting. Ignorance, and letting the fad take over proper judgement.
Question 3)
If one suggests an engine (VQ) over another engine (LSx), doesn't that person become a fan of the suggested engine?
The VQ is quite possibly the best mass produced V6 ever. The fact that Nissan Seems to be able to add Power at will, while adding refinement, increasing gas milage, and adding new advanced features makes this something to really look at as far as swaps go.

Conclusion:
So if you are a fan of the VQ, and you are arguing over a fan of the LSx, you will get nowhere since all you have is opinions.
I have facts on my side.

Here just for good measure:
VQ swaps are for fanboys (like Iceman00) who thinks its cool to drag race.
I think its a Shit motor and a Shit swap, but thats just me.
Right. I see the sarcasm, but I don't really care for drag racing.

LSx and stock engines > VQ swaps.


What I just said, doesn't fucking matter. Just like eBay links.
(If you don't understand that then let me explain, eBay is where you sell stuff for how much you think [your opinion] your item will sell for, not the factual price of said item. Opinions aren't worth shit.)

I see how you managed to screw that up.
Answer 1)
LSx is a fanboy engine because of all the fans of said engine
Answer 2)
There are alot of fans of the engine because of the overwhelmingly positive output said engine produces, thus creating fans.
Answer 3)
You dodged the question, but yes, I'm calling you a fanboy of the VQ engine.

So if you're a fanboy of the VQ engine and someone else is a fan of the LSx engine, what makes your opinion better than his? Maybe you just need to experience the LSx engines for yourself. Maybe he needs to experience the VQ for himself. Same can be said about drifting Mr. Iceman00.

Now if you have experienced both, and which few people have, what you have then is personal preference. Still not a fact. Still an opinion. Still doesn't mean shit.

But what fact does make sense around here?
There are a far greater amount of fanboys for the LSx engine than the VQ engine therefore a lot more people have experienced the overwhelmingly positive outputs of the LSx.

I could tell you all my personal experience and its not going to change a thing.
Go build one, go put it in your 240, go ride along someone else's V8.

Besides, who you going to impress with 'yea I have a V6 in there'.

[Kn1ves]

Originally Posted by gsracer

Yes there is , there is an adapter plate to bolt up a z33 six speed to the vk56

Sorry missed that one, I answered too fast. But I guess you're right.

Chris Forseberg's VK56 engine mated to what looks like a 6 speed


Anyways, another reason is the cutting involved

[BigVinnie]

Simple answers to end all this debating..
1.) THERE is NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT.. That is a fact!!!!! Thats why almost any true motor sports enthusiast if they had the money would select an engine with more cylinders and displacement.(Cough) Chris Foresburg using a VK swap over the VQ enough said, and it is morereliable to not throwing a rod while producing tremendous amount of torque, and not worry about reaching redline with left over power to spare.
2.) The VQ engine is not a crap swap because it is still rated JD power and associates top 10 most reliable, and powerful engines to own. Not to mention I own a Nissan Murano with great gas mileage and a VQ35!!! I am one to talk.
3.) TRUTH: a smog legal (meaning will pass the state ref for C.A.R.B in Cali) VQ or LSX swap will cost $8000 out of your pocket either way you see it they cost the same if you want them legal.Though a VQ non smog legal swap can run as low as $4000 with mechanical TB and standalone of your choice.
4.)Anyone with any other argument doesn't know shit because then anything else is based on your own opinion.
5.)TRUTH: Opinions are like ASS HOLES everyone has one.
Really this thread should be closed as this topic has been beaten to death!!!

[steve shadows]

Originally Posted by BigVinnie

4.)Anyone with any other argument doesn't know shit because then anything else is based on your own opinion.

thats like saying i respect your wrong opinion and your entitled to shut the fuck up.

well whatever.

Just buy a fucking car with a V8 and be a 'real motorsports'

I guess ralley racing and tarmac ralley (which is basically HPDE or time attack style racing) is also bullshit not real racing because of limitations on dispacment for the sake of encouraging technological development for power production from smaller dispacements with better gas milage and power/torque/liter.

I respect chris, I just like sr20s.

What the point paying 4-8k for a V8 in an s13, when you can buy a firebird for 8k, its already got a V8 and its ready to go.

Or anything else.

Save yourself some money in the short and long run.

[BigVinnie]

Originally Posted by steve shadows

I guess ralley racing and tarmac ralley (which is basically HPDE or time attack style racing) is also bullshit not real racing because of limitations on dispacment for the sake of encouraging technological development for power production from smaller dispacements with better gas milage and power/torque/liter.

Not to sound like an ass hole, but what truth is there in what you just said?
Smaller displacement engines will never get better gas mileage to liter as you increase it's power output.
The whole idea why Nissan from year to year keeps increasing displacement as well as every other manufacturer is to increase power output and reducing overall emissions by decreasing the load requirements of the engine. Theres less load on an engine when the displacement/stroke is increased so at lower RPM's less fuel is needed making the engine more efficient, (plain and simply the engine doesn't work as hard). VQ35de's get better gas mileage then the old VG30's, not only because a larger quench area is a better controlled flame front, but also because Compression Ratio is raised increasing power per stroke. You could add small B.S to that factor like a VG is heavier so it carries more weight and uses more gas....Horse shit statement IMO. Besides smaller displacement engines are limited to valve diameter sizes so power output is already limited, and then you also have to deal with issues with valve shrouding, (which actually decreases low end power on small displacement), really smaller isn't better.
Really it's stupid to say that a 400tq,400HP SR will get better gas mileage than a 400tq/400HP naturally aspirated V8. First off natural aspiration uses smaller injection and pulse width while forced induction has to use more fuel to cool a cylinder charge because air is being crammed into a small cylinder increasing engine temperature and a bunch of other thermal dynamic B.S that is involved.
If by chance a 4 cylinder turbo charged car can get better gas mileage, power, etc, than a V8 naturally aspirated car, it would be through the drive train not the engine. You can just look at A/Fr's on a forced induction engines to know you are burning less air to 1LB of fuel than you would with natural aspiration.
As an example my 3.5 liter murrano with CVT AWD, gets better gas mileage than the old school AWD 2.0 liter Subaru Imprezza. Or I can add to that that the new subaru WRX STI's get roughly 22~24 MPG Freeway while I can get 24~27MPG freeway, and the chassis weight on the murano is heavier!!!

Believe me there hasn't been any significant technological advancements in the internal combustion engine. People just try to get better at improving power output on smaller displacement, but then you can throw the whole idea of reliability out the window.

[steve shadows]

I get 25mpg in my 400whp sr.

Im sure if they built a modern 2007 edition of the sr20det it would get better gas milage than a comprable powered larger disp engine.

oh and get your wrx tuned (boxter motors have different VE efficency and power characteristics anywys).

Lets compare a V8 to a Rotary thats about what your trying to do with that presonal example

Its stupid to say that a 400 ht sr gets better gas milage, but the fact is that it fucking does!

I mean jbeus christ i get no worse than 18 mpg on the city streets with 850cc injection and no more than 12:1 afr characteristics on my personal car as well as cars ive tuned with 555cc injectors getting upwards of 20mpg on the city streets. This is 1980s technology.

Find me a 2008 GTO that will get 20mpg on the street.

PS im not saying "smaller" is super dooper better.

Im directly addressing your points abou how a V8 crushes and humiliates smaller engines for performance.

Your going off on tangents about valve shrouding and de-shrouding and head work being hard to do because of valve size.

I don't see your point. Were not making 1000 hp cars here, were talking conservative power, like 400-500 hp.

Last time I checked a 2.3 liter sr with stock head attributes (minus some minor widening of the quench chamber/head zone) will flow 500, 600 even 700 whp no problemo.

My race car is more reliable than my KA, gets better gas milage than my VG30 J30.

[johngriff]

Technology advances are being made and deployed, while vinny what you quoted is true, that is the inexpensive short term answer to keeping power/emissions standards.

Real technology advancements cost money. Things like direct injection are changing the efficiency/power/displacement equation all the time.

Like everything else, the V8 is yet another bravado measuring contest, which is the game we all play, maybe in other arena and faucets, but its the same.

Like I said, it sounds fun as hell, i'd do it in a heartbeat if a customer came to me and said 'john please'... lol